Karl
Private 1st Class
Posts: 405
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Post by Karl on Aug 31, 2009 23:14:10 GMT -5
I don't know about the majority of you, but I think tacticals could step it up a notch. From what I heard and my own expirences airsoft tacticals are fun but have no tactics, or correct WWII tactics that is. To me WWII airsoft is a bunch of guys dressed in WWII garb running around like paintballers. [glow=black,2,300]WWII Tactics 101[/glow] The 4 Fs Find 'em!- Recon your enemy and know where he is. Fix 'em!- Now that you've found him, pin him down. Fight 'em!- When you BoF team softens them up attack them. Most common is by flanking them. Finish 'em!- This is the final push to destory the enemy. Assault "Able" Team The Assault Team will be lead by the Ass. Squad Leader and will consist of five (5) men. It's primary job will be to flank the enemy while the Base of Fire Team accurately suppresses the enemy force(s). It will compose of: (1) Assault Team Leader - Cpl. (4) Rifleman - Private/Private First Class The Assault Team is the main part of the squad and can be split further given the situation at hand. Base of Fire "Baker" Team The Base of Fire (BoF) Team is lead by the Squad's NCO and will only consist of three (3) men. It's primary job is to lay down suppressing fire while the Assault Team advances. It will consist of: (1) BoF Team Leader - Sgt. (1) Rifleman - Private/Private First Class (1) Support Gunner - Private/Private First Class The BoF Team is the secondary section of the squad and can be merged into the Assault Team based on the situation at hand. - Kudos to Medic the picture and bottom portion
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Post by hairy apple on Aug 31, 2009 23:38:09 GMT -5
Very cool. Our unit has been working on using more correct tactics, adapted for airsoft. Field manuals are a very good place to start. They are not really interesting reading, but there are bits and parts you can pull out of them to adapt for use in an airsoft game.
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Karl
Private 1st Class
Posts: 405
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Post by Karl on Aug 31, 2009 23:44:37 GMT -5
Hardscrabblefarm.com says that these formations are from a Feb. 1945 manual, so I hope these are accurate for earlier battles.
Ultimately I think WWII airsoft should become more organized and immersible. Starting with tactics then on to rank integrity.
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Post by hairy apple on Sept 1, 2009 11:46:53 GMT -5
Ultimately I think WWII airsoft should become more organized and immersible. Starting with tactics then on to rank integrity. Yep, we are working hard to make our unit as organized as we can, tactics, ranks, support weapons, ect. Not just a bunch of guys dressed up funny playing with toy guns. I think once people start seeing more and more units that are organized and work as a group using ww2 tactics and such, it will draw a lot of interest.
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Sgt_Tom
Technical Sgt.
Combat!
Posts: 3,580
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Post by Sgt_Tom on Sept 1, 2009 12:50:53 GMT -5
Yea definitely. Without tactics and organized ranks I don't see how you could accomplish anything.
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Post by Obergefreiter Raimund on Sept 2, 2009 7:19:32 GMT -5
I think one of the most important things to consider that will enable tactics, ranks and roles on the field of play is good and strong leadership. Without someone leading the rest of the guys who is respected, loud and sensible; you will not get the attention of the group or team due to the excitement of the event.
I’ve had to lead large groups of guys! It is not fun being the guy that has to yell at everyone to stand at attention and repeat yourself over and over with what is going on. If we as a WW2 Airsoft group want the immersion, then I suggest each group seriously starts to think about who is going to be in command and why that person should do it.
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Sgt_Tom
Technical Sgt.
Combat!
Posts: 3,580
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Post by Sgt_Tom on Sept 2, 2009 9:12:02 GMT -5
Yea I am having my first WWII event this Sunday so we'll see how the command thing works out.
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Post by hairy apple on Sept 2, 2009 16:29:07 GMT -5
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Karl
Private 1st Class
Posts: 405
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Post by Karl on Sept 2, 2009 17:10:35 GMT -5
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Post by m5a11943 on Oct 5, 2009 8:58:24 GMT -5
Karl I like your thinking. May I suggest you find an experienced WW2 reenactor to talk to and get some ideas. I learned most of what I know through the manuals and other reenactors. Studying it for over 25 years and I am still learning. From my own experiences tap into one of these guys to find out how, what and where.
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Post by airbornerocks on Oct 5, 2009 18:19:35 GMT -5
Nice finds everyone, but what is a ammunition bearer? If you have ABLE and BAKER teams both of them equal to 8, should you have a 2 man bazooka team and a 2 man machine gun team? Where does the medic fit in?
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Medic
Sergeant
I'm 12 not 25!
Posts: 1,539
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Post by Medic on Oct 5, 2009 18:25:11 GMT -5
Medics are not part of the combat squad, and not at squad level. Each Rifle Company has 1 Aid Man per platoon, issued from the Medical Platoon, and 4 Litter Bearers. Therefore they would not fit into the Squad Level TO/E. What do you think an Ammunition Bearer is, with a name like Ammunition Bearer.
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Post by airbornerocks on Oct 5, 2009 18:41:00 GMT -5
Well that's kinda obvious. I was hoping to achieve a more specific answer.. as to what they did/more details
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Karl
Private 1st Class
Posts: 405
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Post by Karl on Oct 5, 2009 18:59:55 GMT -5
???They bear Ammo, in other words they are the "pack mules" that carry the ammo. The BAR man (Automatic rifleman) has the supressive fire in squad size elements. The Bazooka teams and machine gun team are in the Heavy Weapons Platoon, not in a regular rifle squad. The anti-tank grenader refers to the Rifle anti-tank grenade and NOT the bazooka. The squad structure is probably different to that of parachute infantry, and definatly different from a Ranger squad.
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Karl
Private 1st Class
Posts: 405
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Post by Karl on Oct 5, 2009 19:09:51 GMT -5
Karl I like your thinking. May I suggest you find an experienced WW2 reenactor to talk to and get some ideas. I learned most of what I know through the manuals and other reenactors. Studying it for over 25 years and I am still learning. From my own experiences tap into one of these guys to find out how, what and where. Thanks, I also do blank reenacting and that's were I got some of the ideas.
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Post by airbornerocks on Oct 5, 2009 20:44:53 GMT -5
Would a ammo bearer carry ammo cans with him?
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Post by hairy apple on Oct 5, 2009 23:16:57 GMT -5
Either ammo cans for the Browning 1919 or magazines in a BAR belt... depending on what the squad has.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Oct 7, 2009 11:45:49 GMT -5
Before one gets too caught up in tables of organization at the Platoon and Squad level make note of two critical considerations. Units virtually never went into combat with a fully staffed unit as assigned. Typically an Infantry Squad would be lucky to have 2/3rds it's assigned strength. This was due to, casualties, sickness, and simple man power shortages. This was true for all armies. The other thing to consider is that with airsofts limited range a squad of 10 to 13 men simply doesn't make tactical sense. Even in fairly dense foliage where engagement ranges with the enemy will be close the Able team of even five guys can't cover the Baker team of five guys even if they're fairly bunched up. This becomes even more obvious in more open terrain or during assaults. Hence squads for airsoft in my opinion should be limited to about six guys tops. That way the man on the extreme left of a formation might be able to give cover fire to the main manuever element on the right.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Oct 7, 2009 11:57:43 GMT -5
it's one thing to read about and discuss tactics but quite another to actually do them. To have even a remote likelihood of employing anything even remotely resembling authentic tactics you need to practice and rehearse the movements when no one is shooting at you. It's hard to find the time to do it but it's absolutely critical. If you go to an event with your team arrive ready to go. That way while all the other players are gearing up and loading your team can be doing walk throughs of tactical skill sets.
Practice fire and manuever, movement by bounds, Break contact right, break contact left, crossing trails, roads or open areas, actions at the halt, changing formations on the move, assault tactics. etc. The primary formations to employ are: On line, file, wedge, escelon left and escelon right. The squad leader should be fighting his squad. The opnly time he fires is to highlight and emphasize when and where he wants his squad to fire. His focus is on disposition of his squad. Do I have good all around security? Am I in the best position? What orders should I be giving? Are there opportunity to exploit? Can I communicate my situation to higher? (Radio, flare, whistle or runner?) What might the enemy do to exploit my current situation. If the squad leader/ platoon leader is focused on firing and engaging the enemy himself he cannot be effectively fighting his squad. He falls into the same tunnel vision all men in combat suffer from.
Practicing and employing tactics makes all the difference in the world toward participating in quality events. With regard to Airsoft it has always been my primary focus and in my opinion optimizes the attributes of airsoft ability to actually direct fire on and receive fire from the enemy.
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Post by squirrelcat on Jan 9, 2010 8:30:45 GMT -5
Yea definitely. Without tactics and organized ranks I don't see how you could accomplish anything. Yes and what are we than...Paintballers?? ;D That was the one thing that pissed me off about that sport. There were no tactics. It was run up on them(wearing something so vibrant it's as bad as reflective tape), shoot out your hopper, fill your hopper, get raped, and repeat. Airsoft on the other hand is highly tactical. Back on the subject of squad tactics though, It is also very important to have a diversity of firepower throughout the squad. Personally I believe that the bulk of the squad should be comprised of Medium Ranged rifles or SMG's, one or two CQB, A HMG team(composed of the HMG itself with one or two rifleman to support him), and a traditional sniper team of spotter and sniper. I believe that the idle squad she be about 9 strong including a Capitan. This will give the Capitan a variety of roles his squad can play a part in. Also given the choice weather to go on the offensive I believe it is more effective to move up fast on the opposing force and set up an ambush in two groups with the medium range rifleman at the front supported by the snipers and HMG positions, after tripping the ambush fall back to a fortified position and dig in to keep up the fight. If the force is weak push up until you reach the objective. I'm not totally sure if that is a world war 2 tactic but it is more or less the natural flow off combat so it wouldn't surprise me. Also you can see a lot of traces from it in battles like Stalingrad or Kharkov, where both armies were intent on holding there positions. It's more or less a defensive pincer movement with an intention of dividing the fire among the two semi-squads. Also, what were some of the Fallschirmjager tactics used on the eastern front? Actually, If someone could just tell me a lot about tactics on the eastern front that would be nice Trying to get it started out here in VA it would be nice to have some real tactics used by the Ruskies and Gerrys. Thanks in advance
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petermartin14
Private 1st Class
RIP Arne Andersson- Sweden's Finest
Posts: 639
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Post by petermartin14 on Jan 9, 2010 12:21:05 GMT -5
that would be fun, but for now our VA. ww2 airsoft is just getting started.
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oberst42
Private
"Oh du Deutschland, ich muss marschieren!"
Posts: 387
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Post by oberst42 on Jan 9, 2010 15:01:34 GMT -5
here's a ruskie tactic, Throw enough men at them they'll be demoralized from killing too many russians, and will cease to fight
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petermartin14
Private 1st Class
RIP Arne Andersson- Sweden's Finest
Posts: 639
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Post by petermartin14 on Jan 9, 2010 15:29:33 GMT -5
hahaha! the germans had to get tired before tooo long.
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CptJericho
Private 1st Class
"We got to stop the Germans from getting the secret weapons!"
Posts: 495
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Post by CptJericho on Jan 9, 2010 15:41:09 GMT -5
do you know the russian death to german death ratio was on the eastern front?!?! IT WAS 15 Russians to 1 German!
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Post by squirrelcat on Jan 9, 2010 16:46:39 GMT -5
do you know the russian death to german death ratio was on the eastern front?!?! IT WAS 15 Russians to 1 German! Ahhh good ol' stalingrad. Fight 'em on the volga with one guy carrying ammo and the other the mosin...thats why we are here today boys
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Adler69
Master sergeant
Legio Patria Nostra
Posts: 2,859
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Post by Adler69 on Jan 9, 2010 17:08:20 GMT -5
do you know the russian death to german death ratio was on the eastern front?!?! IT WAS 15 Russians to 1 German! Ahhh good ol' stalingrad. Fight 'em on the volga with one guy carrying ammo and the other the mosin...thats why we are here today boys The Soviets had plenty of rifles and ammunition for their troops in Stalingrad , that whole one man carries the rifle the other the ammunition is a bunch of made up crap from Enemy at the Gates.
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Post by squirrelcat on Jan 9, 2010 17:14:00 GMT -5
Ahhh good ol' stalingrad. Fight 'em on the volga with one guy carrying ammo and the other the mosin...thats why we are here today boys The Soviets had plenty of rifles and ammunition for their troops in Stalingrad , that whole one man carries the rifle the other the ammunition is a bunch of made up crap from Enemy at the Gates. Are You smurfing Serious!!!!!!!!!!!! OUR TEACHER ACTUALLY TAUGHT US THAT!!!!!!!!!THATS HILARIUS!!!!!!!!!!!
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petermartin14
Private 1st Class
RIP Arne Andersson- Sweden's Finest
Posts: 639
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Post by petermartin14 on Jan 9, 2010 19:47:28 GMT -5
which one, was it dillard? haha thats Probably where he got it from. sad but the truth!
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Feb 1, 2010 20:32:45 GMT -5
If you're groups is serious about tactics they need to practice manuever skills, reactive skills and individual skills well before an actual event and do so repeatedly until actions are reflexive. The likelihood of that happening is close to nil so plan a training day and get done as much as you can in simple walk throughs. At the actual event prior to moving out before "game on" or mission phases take place do a rehearsal walk through of your plan. (Order of movement, how you'll act and position your team at various stages, how you'll assemble enroute and outside the objective and then finally how you will assault the objective itself. Do one or more walk throughs and then you'll discover how unclear the plan is to the assorted members. Only after the walk through and rehearsal will things be remotely close to being able to be executed.
Also offensive manuever was seldom done against a force of equal strength. Simple attacks required at least a 3 to one advantage and an assault on a fortified, prepared position should be 5 to 1 or more. Until action pursuit games accept that fact they will languish in stalemates and BB fests that have little similarity to realism.
Take this to heart and rethink your scenarios and you might just step up your game and greatly enhance your experience.
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