biged
Master sergeant
Posts: 468
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Post by biged on Feb 9, 2009 17:53:15 GMT -5
I will update and edit this data as I test it. Construction: All steel Caliber: 6mm Capacity: 16 bags of bb's, (56,900 bb's if math is correct) FPS: Unknown Range: Unknown ROF: Unknown (Guessing in the high 90's) Firing Time: 9 minutes of Continuous firing Operation: Steel Vortex 1.5" half circle (No moving parts) Valve: Modified 1/4" QEV (Relay valve) Trigger: Blowgun Air Source: Regulated CO2, 5lb bulk CO2 tank Max Pressure: 290 psi Started this project some time ago, been busy with multiple builds at once. Vortex "block". Welded in place but can still be accessed through bottom clean out. Picture of the bottom clean out, QEV modded to act as a relay valve. Picture of the modded rubber piston inside the QEV. The one on the left is the one I made out of 1/4" rubber. The one on the right is the original. Test picture. Ran this setup to test the feeding... The vortex is connected to a 90 elboe. The 90 elboe is connected to barb fitting. The barb fitting is connected to a 360 psi rated hose, sleeved with a spring to ensure a kink free feed. (Nightmare to install) The sleeved hose is connected to a piece of 7/16th hobby brass in which a Marui barrel was installed. Connect to air source, point in safe direction, pull blowgun to fire. Picture of the top of the tank, where you dump in ammo. 7/8ths inch hole. About 75% of the build completed. Close up of the gun, have some detail work to add here. The front trigger assembly on the real M2A1 ignites the diesel fuel.This one does nothing. HOWEVER I tried a setup which would shoot a propane flame about 6-9 inches while firing BB's through it. Could not make it feasible, because the air source would have to O2 (Oxygen) and the volume inside the chamber is so great it would suck a tank dry in under a minute. I relegated the system, flash valves, for the combustible gas internals for my .50 cal. Another ongoing project... ///ed///
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mccallion
Private 1st Class
Official Road Sign Reader (retired)
Posts: 770
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Post by mccallion on Feb 9, 2009 18:05:50 GMT -5
that looks awsome ed i cant wait to sree it finished
mccallion
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Post by tinydata on Feb 9, 2009 18:10:42 GMT -5
amazing!
Did you consider using three or four barrels at once? Imagine a cloud of BBs flying to the target....
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Post by gunfighters on Feb 9, 2009 18:17:16 GMT -5
"HOWEVER I tried a setup which would shoot a propane flame about 6-9 inches while firing BB's through it. Could not make it feasible, because the air source would have to O2 (Oxygen) and the volume inside the chamber is so great it would suck a tank dry in under a minute" you "could" just use strate propane as the power source. run a needle valve to adjust flow to a constant pilot light on the tip.. you would probably see a 4' or so flame out of it.. I get 8'(up) out of 1/4" NPT...but the hose and barrel will likely cut the distance back a bit
edit It rocks
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Medic
Sergeant
I'm 12 not 25!
Posts: 1,539
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Post by Medic on Feb 9, 2009 18:30:22 GMT -5
Wow, another amazing project!
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Post by charleyfoxtrot on Feb 9, 2009 19:37:47 GMT -5
Have you ever seen those cloth flame wall torches they have during Halloween. You could maybe hook something like that up to it, or under it to look like the pilot light.
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YankeeDiv26
Staff Sgt.
Frustrated Mac Owner
BDM<33
Posts: 2,462
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Post by YankeeDiv26 on Feb 9, 2009 19:41:44 GMT -5
Holy hell I'm glad you're not axis!
-FYI: I'll probably have a few hundred more tennis balls for you this spring Ed-
-Tim
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Post by collisi0n on Feb 9, 2009 20:16:26 GMT -5
holy applesauce , ever consider making another for selling? (most kickass USMC impression ever probably)
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kalbs
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,142
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Post by kalbs on Feb 9, 2009 23:58:59 GMT -5
Very, very cool build. I hope you post a video when it's done... Awsome man!
Maybe consider using those cheaper orange colored bb's
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Feb 10, 2009 1:08:16 GMT -5
I suspect going with used BBs would be the way to go. Even a single stream at that ROF would be awesome and frightful. With richochetes inside a bunker or room yikes!!! definitely clean out a structure. The idea of the halloween light flame flaps is sort of intrigiung although it would look goofy when it goes limp.
Although incredibly spendy the tracer Bbs at night coming out of it would be horrific!!!!!
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Post by Polski on Feb 10, 2009 2:57:30 GMT -5
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tm47
Private
Posts: 44
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Post by tm47 on Feb 10, 2009 17:51:43 GMT -5
what about some orange, red, and/or yellow smoke blowing out the front for a flame effect.
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Post by Warlord on Feb 10, 2009 18:12:00 GMT -5
Sweet Jesus...now this??!
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Post by collisi0n on Feb 10, 2009 19:26:47 GMT -5
why not use orange/yellow/red bb's? using actual flames and things of that nature are potential fire hazards
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biged
Master sergeant
Posts: 468
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Post by biged on Feb 11, 2009 5:11:30 GMT -5
True inner barrel meltdown... Initially I wanted to use "the torch" as an option. But since it posed a safety issue, I stopped pursuing it. ///ed///
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godo
Private
Are you careful what you say or write?
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Post by godo on Feb 17, 2009 23:55:21 GMT -5
Great idea! I would love to take on a project like this. I wonder if the vortex design is even necessary? Could you do a gravity/cloud feed simply by pumping gas into the bb resevoir?
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TommyGunner
Staff Sgt.
Hackjob Mauro
1st Marine Division, 1942
Posts: 2,265
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Post by TommyGunner on Feb 18, 2009 0:00:02 GMT -5
WOW, this is amazing you truely are a great craftsman!!!!!!
TommyGunner
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Post by gunfighters on Feb 18, 2009 14:12:10 GMT -5
Great idea! I would love to take on a project like this. I wonder if the vortex design is even necessary? Could you do a gravity/cloud feed simply by pumping gas into the bb resevoir? nope then you jam. you can do what is known as a "cloud" and bring the air up for the bottom to adjatae the bb..kind of a loto ball machine on crack. the "vortex" works just like a cloud, it just the "coffer dam" walls limit the flow of bbs in, so the air only has to push up thew a limited amout.. so on bigger guns that means smoother feed and higher ROF heres the patten that started it all the outher way to do things is the old "shoot the star" carinval game uses pressue in the mag to like a BV gun, here was my "take" on it, i was seting this up as 1919 internals with the coil mag stored in a amo can like so many, it never was finished..
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deacon
Private 1st Class
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Post by deacon on Feb 19, 2009 19:47:42 GMT -5
I am so confused on how this thing works? please explain how when you pull the trigger on the blowgun, it shoots bbs, and is it the same design on the bottom. or is that different.
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biged
Master sergeant
Posts: 468
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Post by biged on Feb 20, 2009 5:58:12 GMT -5
The blow gun pilots the QEV. The pilot pressure comes in when the gas is on. This pressure instantly closes the QEV rubber valve I made. The only way to open it, is to depress the trigger on the blowgun. The rubber valve opens, but instead of the air rushing out the blowgun, it rushes out the 1/4" port on the other side of the QEV. Because the rubber valve moves forward and blocks the port leading to the blowgun. Now the valve is opened and air goes up into the bottom of the BB chamber (main tank) BB's are agitated by the air (looks like popcorn popping), and since the air can only go out through the vortex chamber, it heads out through it pushing BB's along with it. The BB's travel through the lined hose up to the barrel and out. When you release the blowgun trigger, the rubber valve closes because the pilot pressure builds again, and shuts off the air leading into the valve chamber.
Having the proper agitation height is crucial. Having the vortex chamber correctly positioned is important. Getting all the connections mated properly for fit is paramount. And shaping that rubber valve so high pressure, a mass quantity of BB's sitting in the tank, and heading out the barrel is tedious. It took me seven attempts until it opened and closed flawlessly without bleeding too much air out the blowgun.
///ed///
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deacon
Private 1st Class
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Post by deacon on Feb 21, 2009 1:02:06 GMT -5
that makes more sense, is the air supply hooked up to the opposite end of the blowgun?
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biged
Master sergeant
Posts: 468
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Post by biged on Feb 21, 2009 6:29:15 GMT -5
No, it is connected to the QEV. There is a quick disconnect, third picture from the top. It all takes place inside that QEV. The blowgun acts as a remote to open it. The air rushes through the QEV into the chamber, then through the sleeved hose and out the barrel.
Easy to build or design, no...
///ed///
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deacon
Private 1st Class
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Post by deacon on Feb 21, 2009 21:04:25 GMT -5
oh, now that makes a lot more sense. thanks Ed, ill attempt this but may end up doing it differently to make it more simple.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Feb 22, 2009 3:47:18 GMT -5
The original pattern was for the LARC 19 BB gun out of Florida. In 1975 or so I bought three of them. They were awesome. Very simple concept powered by Freon Gas like you'd use in an auto airconditioning back before were tore a hole in the ozone layer and it was banned.
Having messed with this concept quite a bit I can tell you Deacon if you want to simplify Big Eds design all you'll mage to do is create something that doesn't work. Getting the size, fittings and prper proportions is actually quite challneging but when you do they work amazingly well. The design once finished is quite simplistic in function. The LARC 19 was a cheap BB gun machine gun (I think they were $35.00 delivered back in the day) when hooked up to a compressed air source with a regualtor they could be pressured up to where steal BBs from it could tear holes in garbage cans. I am not kidding. Training Aids at Ft Lewis rigged them on M551 Sheridan Tanks so the tankers could suppress the Infantry trainees who were trying to hit their tanks with LAW sub caliber munitions. Prior to having something to shoot back with the Infantry got quite good with the LAWs that all changed when the tank were shooting back. The Infantry guys wore fencing masks to protect their faces eyes and heads from the steel BBs which obviously werent cranked up to garbage can FPSs but hurt like hell. Even then a single tank had no preayer against volley fire but three tanks in mutial support of one another were very hard to take on.
Training in this method was fun, challenging and highly effective.
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Post by tinydata on Feb 22, 2009 10:58:20 GMT -5
going through a garbage can? I sure hope this version doesn't have that potential!
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Feb 22, 2009 20:20:18 GMT -5
Keep in mind the LARC 19 shot regular steel BBs and with a regualtor you could pressure it up to virtually any pressure you wanted to. The guys at Ft Lewis Training Aids were screwing around with their modifications and shot one at a garbage can about 60 feet away and tore through it with little effort. The rate of fire on these gas direct designs are frightening. Literally a solid stream of BBs. The sound was almost identical to an auto shops impact wrench used to remove lug nuts.
Training aids designed the regulators so they couldn't exceed the "safe" threshholds but even at that these real steel BB gun machine guns were beyond wicked. The Brigade commander Col Bernard Loufke (sp?) wanted to be sure what he was subjecting his troops to was safe so he donned a fencing mask and ordered a PFC in the tank to shoot him. The PFC felt quite uneasy about it since the colonel was wearing only his OG107 cotton uniform. A SP4 beside the private said "Out of the way I'll shoot him. after all an order is an order!" He suggested the Colonel put his exposed hands behind his back which only tightened his uniform across his chest even more. He let go with a burst from 60 feet away and put a nice six inch shot group of probably 40 rounds right into his center of mass. The Colnel stepped back and let out a slight yelp and after catching his breath said. "That hurts like a mother smurfer! If it saves one guy from actually getting shot it's well worth it, lets go with it." Hence we used BB guns at the 1st Brigade of the 9th Infantry Division for parts of our training and as far as I know were the only unit in the army to do. Other than marksmanship training under the "Quick Kill" program.
As Big Ed will tell you these direct gas designs have the potential to be quite lethal I know he's responsible enough to take the needed precautions. The Airsoft and BB gatling guns designs you see operate under the same concept and if not properly harnessed can be very dangerous.
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Post by gunfighters on Feb 23, 2009 0:34:29 GMT -5
yep.. I had one that was spiting .25 @ 450fps @ 180 psi I would love to see Eds shotting @ 290 deacon2ad , yes they may be simpler ways to build a bb hose, but for the device in question (replica flame thrower) ED hit the nail on the head. if you need ideas, search "strafer " 2nd Bat, I had not hurd the story of the larc 19 on tanks , thank you for it. there is a bit of a long history of BB gun use aside for the "quick kill" instinctive shooting program. mid 60s in some SF units, there was some force on force work using pump action guns and riot face guards and some WWII AAA work with Mac Glashan Air Machinegun Corp Aerial Training Guns
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biged
Master sergeant
Posts: 468
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Post by biged on Feb 24, 2009 5:49:52 GMT -5
There is also the story about the "Lombard Centrifugal Gun" in 1918. Mr Levi W. Lombard of Massachusetts. A powder less machine gun operated by steam, later by electricity, firing 10 to 50 bullets per second. "Bullets" in the form of ball bearings. The test was reported to penetrate a 3/8ths inch boiler plate at 200 yards. He worked on the gun for 37 years. All the claims were later proved false.
///ed///
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Post by CharleyNovember on Feb 24, 2009 9:01:11 GMT -5
Mythbusters did a section on the steamgun...It sucked.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Feb 24, 2009 12:38:52 GMT -5
We did force on force with Daisey red rider BB guns that had been modified by Training Aids to look like M16s at the 1st Brigade 9th ID RECONDO school They added a resin rear stock and front handguard that looked right with the sight and handle added. The lever action was cut off directly behind the trigger ring and an M16 pistol grip. These modified BB guns were also used for quick kill training. We supplemented the units with LARC 19 designs to simulate support weapons. One of these modified BB guns is on display at the Ft Lewis Museum. I wish I had grabbed on for myself back in the day.
During the 9mm sub caliber LAW training we shot sub munitions at M551 Sheridan tanks. The tankers understandably complained that of course we were scoring hits, they weren't shooting back! That's when we put fencing masks on the LAW gunners and gave the tanks the BB gun machine guns. Indeed the accuracy changed dramatically. A single tank even then was hopeless but as soon as two and especially three could work in harmony the Infantry had a really hard time. Incidently Training Aids originally issued football helmets with riot masks but they fogged up horribly so we got fencing masks. I still have about a dozen of them and it probably inspired my later face mask approach for airsoft.
Getting back on topic, Big Eds flame thrower is going to spew BBs like there is no tomorrow and the design is very much in line with the design used in the WW2 aerial gunnerry BB guns.
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