SS questions (33rd SS particular)

[kaiser]

Hello chaps, I've recently started gathering my SS gear. I'm doing a Obersturmführer(Infantry so white I believe) of the 33rd SS kit. I have the white shoulder boards with one pip and the collar tabs coming in the mail soon but I've got some questions:

As I'm doing one of the late period foreign units I wondering about the following:

-Is it ok to wear jack boots, I have the gaiters and boots but I enjoy wearing the jack boots more

-Would it be commonplace for 33rd SS company officers to have iron crosses first class and if so would it be ok to wear it in the field

-Did the MP40 have a black sling?

-As I'm portraying a officer, would it be ok to not wear the cross strap or not the V straps, I figured late war there would be alot of improvisions. (The straps will really kill be budget)

-Was it common for some officers(esp. those in the foreign units) to still use the C96? I have the 4 inch barrel luger but I'm just curious as I always liked the C96 more and I have a holster for it

-does anyone have a pic of the usual optics an officer would of carried with him, I can hardly find of pic of it these days

here's my uniform so far, it still in the works of course

[gadge]

Honest answers

Dont try and shoe horn things you like in and justify them.

Pick a representative picture and model yourself on that.

Your uniform is far more suited to early war in that picture. Jackboots were very rare except on old vets later in the war, as were m36 tunics (m36 tunics are not that common in the SS anyway), sure some were recycled but if you want a late war look you're off to a bad start.

Slings were usually buff or brown leather, you could have polished one black though.

That sling is far too wide to pass.

Dont buy tat you don't need like iron crosses when you could be buying those Y straps that are far more useful and representative.

If you're on a budget do an impression of an EM.

A good officers impression will cost you more.

For a start officers uniforms are cut differently and in a different fabric (some officers did wear ems uniforms), your uniform would really fit you better as an officer.

The sleeves on the uniform should not be too long and the skirt higher to give an impression of height.

Add to that your M43 is an enlisted mans not an officers, officers ones had silver piping around the upper crown

Probably not what you want to hear but there you go.

Chomley Warner does a good SS majors impression and he looks the part but bought officers cut uniform, crusher cap, the right insignia (you need to change your shoulder boards as well as get collar tabs) but more importantly he looks the part because of his age and bearing.

Before you buy bling, medals and pistols its better to get the basic field gear (you've already got a good basis for a schutze impression) including y straps, bread bag, feldflashce and gas mask tin.

This is my mid 43 waffen ss SNCO impression, as a 30+ year old feldwebel having jack boots is reasonable, this impression is by no means perfect but note the more common SS collar.



And this is my late war oberschutze kit, note by 44 low boots are the norm, especially with dot44. (the low boots are modern as again this is a work in progress with lots to be improved on, its far form perfect)

[gadge]

This guy is 'cookie' from the UK, you want a late war 33rd SS look.
Copy this:

[kaiser]

ah I see. The 33rd SS is indeed a hard thing to pull off from what I heard. Another re-enactor told me that some of the officer core that joined from the Heer would occasionally bring along their M36 uniforms but of course it was rare. At the time it was the only green-like uniform(airsoft rules said I needed a green-like or tan like uniform and I didn't want to do Afrika Korps) I could find

I'm mainly just wanting an impression not complete accuracy as that will really butcher my budget and I won't be able to get that shiny MP 44 I want.

I already have a Imperial Japanese Uniform so going for a german uniform was laready going to be difficult as is.

Orginally I wanted to do the Viking unit but it made more since for me to pick the Dutch or French SS as there were some Asians actually in them from their colonies.

Please pardon my ignorance make what is a EM?

Was the crusher cap actually more common on the field than the what I'm wearing? I always figured it was impractical to wear such a thing in engagements. I have one but I just don't wear it as I didn't think it was needed.

So Y straps are a must I see, understood, my breadbag's coming in a week so I'll have that and here I thought Obersturmführers didn't carry them, I was just going to wear it so I could carry more ammo and bbs

Thank you for your answers though

[gadge]

An EM is an enlisted man, to be brutally honest as none of your kit is at the moment officers, why no be an enlisted man, you'll look far less Flaggrantly Wrong and its far cooler anyway.

M36 tunics get rarer and rarer as the war goes on, making all grey tunics is an economy measure you see.... an officer might take his M36 *officers* tunic with him but yours is a heer EMs (green rather than black shoulder boards), an officers tunic would be a more gaberdine type material, closer cut and have different shoulder boards. Its always better to play a rank near your age. Even in the Waffen SS which was renowned for young NCos and officers its going to look weird given you look pretty young.

If you're a junior officer/field officer you're living with your men in the field and so carry the stuff they carry on the whole... generally more.

The crusher cap was more popular than the visor cap because, as the name suggests you can crush it down into a pack or down your smock as its flexible. If you're worried about 'impractical' dont buy iron crosses... get a steel helmet instead

Im not trying to put you off, more to suggest doing an impression more in tune with what you already have if you get me?

[kaiser]

oh nevermind, EM=enlisted man, damn I feel odd lol

[gadge]

Feb 10, 2010 19:02:20 GMT -5 gadge said:

An EM is an enlisted man, to be brutally honest as none of your kit is at the moment officers, why no be an enlisted man, you'll look far less Flaggrantly Wrong and its far cooler anyway.

M36 tunics get rarer and rarer as the war goes on, making all grey tunics is an economy measure you see.... an officer might take his M36 *officers* tunic with him but yours is a heer EMs (green rather than black shoulder boards), an officers tunic would be a more gaberdine type material, closer cut and have different shoulder boards. Its always better to play a rank near your age. Even in the Waffen SS which was renowned for young NCos and officers its going to look weird given you look pretty young.

(edit: ive just noticed you're 21 , you look much younger in that pic
not unlikely a rank for 21 but still the kits more correct for an EM than an officer.)

If you're a junior officer/field officer you're living with your men in the field and so carry the stuff they carry on the whole... generally more.

The crusher cap was more popular than the visor cap because, as the name suggests you can crush it down into a pack or down your smock as its flexible. If you're worried about 'impractical' dont buy iron crosses... get a steel helmet instead

Im not trying to put you off, more to suggest doing an impression more in tune with what you already have if you get me?

[Fusilier]

Orginally I wanted to do the Viking unit but it made more since for me to pick the Dutch or French SS as there were some Asians actually in them from their colonies.
>>
I have a book on the 33rd Charlemagne Div(Brigade) and I don't see where that was the case.

BTW,why do an officer impression? Do you have friends also doing this impression? NCO's or EM's?
Gadge was 100% correct in everything he said. I also recommend getting a good helmet,as Germans,RARELY, any Country really, rarely wore a soft cap in combat. Soviets were the exception as it was a ego or masculine thing with Russians.

Green like or tan like uniform?

[kaiser]

Yeah the rules are green or tan so for me it was either get a heer/ss uniform or a afrika Korp uniform. Yes I have other mates who are all sturmman, that being said, I'm usually squad leader as no one else wants to be bothered with tactics and I'm the only one that actually leads decently out of the rest of my lot.

Originally I was going to be a Hauptscharführer but it was cheaper for some reason to get the tabs for a Obersturmführer so I decided to do that instead. I usually run a Imperial Japanese Army marine kit as I can look the part easier and you can imagine going from IJA to Waffen SS is tough work.

I had looked at pics and mainly used this as the base


I reason behind the choice of the 33rd SS as it was the only one, besides the dutch SS that actually had Asians in it. It made me feel better that I'd make a bit more sense.

Plus I didn't have much sources for the 33rd SS, well pictures that is.

edit: About asians in the SS, there were only about four indochinese in the 33rd from what I've heard mainly from here forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=114784

[Fusilier]

An officer was usually in command of a platoon or company level unit. Rottenfuhrers and above were squad or section leaders. Even sturmanns led squads when manpower was short. So unless you have 20-30 friends,I'd recommend being an NCO.

And isn't that a picture of a reenactor that you base your impression off of?? Use REAL wartime pics as research not some possibly authentically challenged reenactor living historian.

I also don't take much stock of the info on that Axis forum. You need to look at some books and do your own research.

[kaiser]

NCO sounds better, the current outfit I'm using can pass for an early NCO I take it then. I've got about 10 guys, most of them privates, 2 corporals and that's it really. Although their all an assorted bunch, got some of them wearing jaegar, artillery, cavalry, panzer grenadiers, etc. All assorted bunch. Although most of them are the 28th and 12th SS, got a few 34ths in there too

[gadge]

Feb 10, 2010 19:06:16 GMT -5 Fusilier said:

Soviets were the exception as it was a ego or masculine thing with Russians.

To paraphrase a Russian veteran 'Helmets are for women'. Having said that such machismo is great for getting you killed. The Spanish Blue Division used to take horrific casualies from artillary and mortars as it was considered effeminate to take cover and hit the ground as you wer supposed to scorn danger as a man...

[Fusilier]

Feb 11, 2010 13:47:22 GMT -5 kaiser said:

NCO sounds better, the current outfit I'm using can pass for an early NCO I take it then. I've got about 10 guys, most of them privates, 2 corporals and that's it really. Although their all an assorted bunch, got some of them wearing jaegar, artillery, cavalry, panzer grenadiers, etc. All assorted bunch. Although most of them are the 28th and 12th SS, got a few 34ths in there too

>>
Well,everyone needs to get on the same page then! With ONE branch/unit insignia instead of everyone wearing pretty much what they want is what it sounds like! Ten guys? A corporal or rottenfuhrer would or could be in command of 10 guys. That was very realistic. There should be no officers in your small group.

[kaiser]

most of the lads are 28th so I guess that'd be fine. MAjority says most of them are panzer grenadiers, I've also got alot of them wearing specialist badges too. I actually considered wearing one myself as the lads have plenty of them lying around.

Although I've never seen the specialist badges worn in period pics.

another question, could my current outfit pass for a tech sergeant as I currently have the shoulder boards of that rank from a teammate of mine who had extras

[gadge]

Erm, you're doing Germans right? Think German, unlike the American army that has about ninety types of sgt the German army was far more like the British army.

Sgts are mainly management and administrating positions, they dont led squads they assist platoon officers.

CORPORALs lead squads.

Take some time to look at the Heer and SS rank structure, as mentioned the majority of your squad would be schutzes (shooters), those who have been about a bit would be oberschutze or sturman... all of these ranks are more or less grades of private soldier.

A section commander is typically a Rottenfuhrer, as the war progressed this would go DOWN not up as youd have a shortage of competant NCOs.

A sgt is a Scharfurher and above that you're getting into company admin ranks really.

You obviously do have accounts of Sgts, Sgt Majors etc leading patrols and fighting but its not an ideal situation and usually means something has gone wrong as Feldwebels/Oberscharfuherers/Warrant Officers etc are too valuable a company resource to throw into the meat grinder.

I personally play a Oberscharführer as I run events and often lead the SS contingent of 30 - 40 guys so its fitting and i tend to be in a command and control role not leading a fighting patrol but when im playing in other games im a simple oberschutze and can get stuck in.

So ideally you should be looking at being a rottenfuhrer, have one or two sturman in the squad i fine too.

Kit wise.. you've a real mix of stuff a the mo.
Hat mid war EM SS
Tunic early war heer
trousers pretty generic
boots, mid to late war

The easiest thing to do would be somethign around mid 43, if you want to go any earlier you need a side cap like this one (although as said... steel helmet much more useful, you can wear it all year.)



Note thats late war dot44 with an early war side cap, again old sweats (alte hase) often retained their old headwear even when the new practical m43s came out.

In short, get yourself some black shoulder boards with white trim and a rottenfuhrers double chevron. Leave it at that if you want to do it well. There is a tendancy for those starting out doing German kit to look like BA Barracus from the A Team all covered in bling, combat awards and rank. It looks stupid and its Flaggrantly Wrong. I'm not being judgemental, i did it myself when i started. On my first tunic I spent twice as much decking it out as the jacket and trousers cost in the first place.

Off hand i think i had a brandenburg commando impression and a m36 wth stabsgefreitor rank, late war brandenburger cuftitle, kreta and afrika title, arm para badge, anti partisan badge, close combat clasp and jaeger badge.... I did not know better at the time and had not asked for advice like you have. All those badges currently now sit in a cardboard box. The only combat award I have these days on my kit is an infantry assault badge.


What you should be spending your money on is this:




In summary, start small and build up.

A mid war rottenfuhrer with ten comrades is far more credible than a rag tag band of ten guys from various regiments led by a blinged up captain.

If you want to put on trades and badges wait til you do something in battle/game that merits it.

Take out an enemy vehicle with hand grenades - get yourself a tank destruction badge, it will be much more satisfying that way

In my British unit I run (30 of us and I usually play a corporal or platoon sgt) we dont allow any qualifications or awards unless you can actually do it or have done it or the group think you deserve an award for service.

Examples being I have a wound badge for sustaining a wound when i was a soldier for real, Nige has a signallers badge as he was a signaller in the parachute regiment. Ranj has just been awarded a good conduct badge for two years of attending every event our group has been to etc.

Its more fun that way trust me.

(oh and what do you have on your ears in that pic?)

[kaiser]

It was a very cold day so I put on some ear muffs lol. YEah I didn't realize the sgts were mainly advisors, I always figured the 1st sgts would serve that purpose. Actually one of my mates picked up some Unterscharführer collar tabs that he eneded up not using(he wanted to be a soldat instead) so I guess that would do nicely for me. I recall it was a common rank among the SS so I'm assuming that should suffice.

Another question, would SS-men carry pistol lanyards? I'm really curious as I have a WW1 pistol lanyard lying around.

Yeah out of the ten guys, they're the following:
4 Sturmman(three of them 12th, one stray 2nd)
3 Obersoldats with medical personal badges?(one 11th, two 28th)
3 schutze(all of them 28th except for one 7th)

[gadge]

Pistol lanyards are more of British and Russian thing tbh.

You know if you wear smocks the unit difference is much less of an issue unless you have unit with different collar runes.

Schutze was the most common SS rank, followed by ober schutze, then sturman etc.....

The higher up you go obviosly the les common a rank is so again, be a rotten fuhre if you're the leader of a group of ten.

If you just want to prance about as a company sgt or field marshall then just do it, is your hobby you can do what you like... but if you want to do it well be a corporal, Unterschar would be doable but he lower the better TBH.

If you grow your group to around 20 consider being a leutnant/untersturmfuhrer. As said we have 30 guys in our group the co -organiser and I badge up depending on how many guys are attending an event.

While I normally play the platoon sgt and he the leiutenant, our April event we're going as a ten man rifle section, I'll be a corporal and he'll be a private, one of the other guys the '/cpl. It would be silly to turn up as ten of us with an officer and platoon sgt.

(yep a Sgts job i to make sure the corprals are doing theirs, enforce discipline, handle a lt of the paperwork, replen ammunition,sort out rations and sentry rotas etc. A good sgt has been in the army for 10 + years and has done his time as a fireteam leader)

[kaiser]

Feb 12, 2010 14:27:41 GMT -5 gadge said:

(yep a Sgts job i to make sure the corprals are doing theirs, enforce discipline, handle a lt of the paperwork, replen ammunition,sort out rations and sentry rotas etc. A good sgt has been in the army for 10 + years and has done his time as a fireteam leader)

I usually have to do that anyhow lol, firing disciple, ammo, paperwork as no one else wants to be bothered with it. My lads usually fire at anything that moves and they spray way too much esp with the MP44 guys. I usually have to hide the ammo tin so they conserve ammo.

So from what I understand squad composition wise a unterschar wouldn't make sense leading ten guys

But uniform=wise with what I have I could pass for a unterschar?

[gadge]

No you'd be much better off as a rottenfuhrer as i've been trying to say.

As i said before you need to change your shoulder boards to black ones, get EMs collar tabs and a rottenfuhrers double chevron and you're good to go.

If you go higher than that you have to start messing about with tress on your collar.

As for ear muffs... you do know the m43 is designed to go over your ears in cold weather yeah?

Basically it come sdown to being honest with yourself about what you want.

If you want to be a convincing section leader and guide your team in the right direction then go with the above advice from Fuslier and myself

If you want to make up an outfit that you thinks cool with the stuff you've got and have fun playing in the woods then go with whatever bits and bobs you have lying about.

Either is fine, its your hobby the thing you cant do however is try and find excuses and reasons to fit the second one in with historical re-enactment

[kaiser]

understood good sir. If rottenfuhrer is more convincing then I shall do so. I'll most likely feel odd later if I were to use a higher rank that that with my current set up.

I've seen the winter ear clothes and I've just placed an order for those, I suppose the crusher cap will fit nicely under it.

Thank you sirs for putting up with me lol. IF I hadn't put this up I'd be walking around in a haphazard of a uniform lol.

So I'll be getting those chevs soon then along with the correct collar tabs

[Fusilier]

I've seen the winter ear clothes and I've just placed an order for those, I suppose the crusher cap will fit nicely under it.
>>
Crusher caps were NOT worn in combat,helmets were. Crusher caps were worn off duty for the most part.

[gadge]

Well yes to as degree although there are plenty of pics of them being worn by SNCOs in combat areas (the famous staged pic of Piepers SNCO at the Malmedy sign at the Battle of the Bulge, staged pic yes but they ae all in what they were wearing at the time of the advance) not common I agree, but not unheard of either... but... you wont want one as a corporal anyway..

Your m43 is fine, and you dont need ear muffs or any additional ear stuff, just pull down the sides of your cap if its cold. Thats why it unbuttons at the front so it can be pulled over the ears in cold weather!

[kaiser]

ah I see. thank you all, you're been very informative and patient

[gadge]

No probs, if i'd have asked sensible questions like you have and listened to those around me who tried to give advice when i started I probably could have saved myself about $300 as I bought loads of stuff that I did not need as I thought it 'looked cool' when in fact it looked Flaggrantly Wrong

[deathwing98]

Hey when you didn't have your Y-straps on your Mp40 Pouches were they heavy? Thanks btw I'm Laotian and I'm trying to make a Charlemagne loadout too!

[Fusilier]

If you're wearing two MP-40 pouches,y-straps sure do help. Heavy? No,not in AS.

[kaiser]

well when you wear two mp40 pouches without a y strap it's annoying as you have to reajust it sometimes and you have to tie it tight. Trying to wear a luger pouch, breadbag full of pyro, mp40 pouches and bayonet is just impossible, I quickly got a y strap soon after as you can wear the belt loose

I decided to do a regular rottenfuhrer, still pondering on whether to do the 33rd or the 2nd. I also have a ROA officer in the works

[Fusilier]

Jun 3, 2010 13:16:48 GMT -5 kaiser said:

well when you wear two mp40 pouches without a y strap it's annoying as you have to reajust it sometimes and you have to tie it tight. Trying to wear a luger pouch, breadbag full of pyro, mp40 pouches and bayonet is just impossible, I quickly got a y strap soon after as you can wear the belt loose

I decided to do a regular rottenfuhrer, still pondering on whether to do the 33rd or the 2nd. I also have a ROA officer in the works

>>
You know,we could always use just regular German infantry...just a thought..

[gadge]

Fusilier mate, get a grip. Wheres the fun in that.

Everyone knows the second world war was fought entirely by blonde haired lantern jawed waffen ss with eighteen tank destruction badges a piece, a chest full of combat awards and the iron cross.... every single one of them.

The only reason you have to research this carefully is that you cant see all the ironmongery as *every* german soldier wore a full suit of matching camo over the top and carried an assault rifle.

Fusilier chap, DO SOME RESEARCH

Sarcasm mode off: Yeah, what he said. I wish more folk would do Heer EM... Our group do 2nd line territorial army (reservists called up) infantry for a lot of our stuff and every one around us is a super duper underwaterknife fighting ninja commando

[Fusilier]

Damn Gadge,I'm sorry,I need to open a book every now and then! lol!

I once saw a guy at an event in splinter B from head to toe! Including breadbag,canteen cover,and gaiters! And his 98 wrapped in it!