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Post by Gordak on May 16, 2007 20:25:10 GMT -5
Deuce, very cool! I see alot of work went into that. I know we will be playing together in the future, Just to warn you, you out rank all 16 members of Dog Company! shellshokt, Awesome!, my Only suggestion is to remove the flag, 101st guys didnt have them.
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YankeeDiv26
Staff Sgt.
Frustrated Mac Owner
BDM<33
Posts: 2,462
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Post by YankeeDiv26 on May 16, 2007 20:37:55 GMT -5
very nice impression shellshokt. I'm not trying to accuse you of doing something wrong but was putting your mag pouch on your suspender strap common? also for airborne (especially 101st) you might want to add a helmet net and mabye some scrim. other than that you're looking good. also, my m1 gets nice compliments wherever it goes.
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Post by Tough Ombre on May 16, 2007 21:27:51 GMT -5
Deuce, very cool! I see alot of work went into that. I know we will be playing together in the future, Just to warn you, you out rank all 16 members of Dog Company! shellshokt, Awesome!, my Only suggestion is to remove the flag, 101st guys didnt have them. I have read that the 101 still was issued them, but didnt put them on, though when they started receiving friendly fire incidents after d-day, i have heard of guys pinning them on. Just what i have heard. -Cary
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Red
Private
All-Americans All the Way!
Posts: 254
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Post by Red on May 16, 2007 21:59:33 GMT -5
I never heard of that before. Interesting.
Doc Butzen
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Post by bullets on May 17, 2007 0:43:24 GMT -5
nice little kit there, im not to hot about the shoulder holster, but its not "wrong" i just think its over done.
You definitely need some cover on that helmet
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click
Sergeant
Company G, 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines, 1st Marine Division
Posts: 1,764
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Post by click on May 17, 2007 1:24:24 GMT -5
Looking good shellshokt. Keep it up!
Click
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Red
Private
All-Americans All the Way!
Posts: 254
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Post by Red on May 17, 2007 16:31:22 GMT -5
Your 101st, get rid of the danged invasion flag, that was not done in normandy for the 101st, only the 82nd...
Doc Butzen
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Post by Tough Ombre on May 17, 2007 18:34:30 GMT -5
Deuce, very cool! I see alot of work went into that. I know we will be playing together in the future, Just to warn you, you out rank all 16 members of Dog Company! shellshokt, Awesome!, my Only suggestion is to remove the flag, 101st guys didnt have them. I have read that the 101 still was issued them, but didnt put them on, though when they started receiving friendly fire incidents after d-day, i have heard of guys pinning them on. Just what i have heard. -Cary Like i said earlier it was done by a few. -Cary
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Post by Gordak on May 17, 2007 20:27:59 GMT -5
Cary,
post or direct us to the evidence please.
-Gordak
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Red
Private
All-Americans All the Way!
Posts: 254
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Post by Red on May 17, 2007 20:48:12 GMT -5
Yes i agree with gordak... ive never seen pictorial evidence of this being done, the 48 star flag only makes you a target, invasion flags were made to only last a week they were never pinned on till Holland... and even then they only lasted a day or two before being taken off...
Doc Butzen
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Post by Tough Ombre on May 17, 2007 20:54:02 GMT -5
I dont have the evidence, since it was something i had read at one time. -Cary
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Post by wade on May 17, 2007 21:00:09 GMT -5
In the book "Eyewhitness to D-Day" there is a picutre of three paras standing around talking to a Frenchman. These are all paras form the 101st, and they all had invasion flags. I would scan the picture, but I don't have a scanner, nor do I know how to scan.
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Red
Private
All-Americans All the Way!
Posts: 254
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Post by Red on May 17, 2007 21:05:47 GMT -5
3 troopers out of how many thousands? i wouldn't do it... its not common at all...
Doc Butzen
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Post by Tough Ombre on May 17, 2007 21:35:07 GMT -5
Im not saying it was common... im just throwing it out there so that its known.. and people dont say "THAT NEVER HAPPENED" I also believe that it was the 501st who did this. COuld be very wrong though. -Cary
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Post by wade on May 18, 2007 6:05:33 GMT -5
It wasn't common, but it was done.
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Post by Gordak on May 18, 2007 10:30:47 GMT -5
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on May 18, 2007 11:41:11 GMT -5
I spoke with a WW2 vet of the 101st at the Battle of the Bulge survivors reunion I attended on three occassions. (I had my Jeep and map display there) One told of taking fire from a group of tanks and troops from the invasion beaches and one of his men jumped up on the causeway road and emphatically pointed to his American flag "Pinned" to his shoulder. It worked as they stopped taking fire. His Battalion commander was previously with the 82nd in the medditeranean and insisted his men wear the flags which they were given.
So there's a battalion anyway. 600 guys, not all THAT rare. I specifically reexamined his statement as it was my belief that the flags were not worn by the 101st and he reconfirmed it. He also told me that the clickers (101st) were widely varied in design some of them being simple toys while others were purpose built.
A flag pinned to a 101st impression was not very commonplace but clearly not "Wrong."
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Post by wade on May 18, 2007 13:46:43 GMT -5
Yes that's the book, and I'm not saying that we should do it because it's documented, all I'm saying is it was done so it isn't entirely wrong. He could be that rare case that did have it, that did pin it on.
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Post by Gordak on May 18, 2007 13:59:46 GMT -5
Hmm didnt Guy Sajer forget which side the cuff title went on, Did everyone in ww2 really kill tiger tanks? I like to trust vetrans, but Ive heard some pretty strange stuff also. But Ill give in on this one.
101st can now wear flags. So there we go, He can leave his flag on, sorry about that shellshokt!
now this makes me start yo think alot deeper about what we are doing here.
so is the moral to the story is...
I see two choices.
1. lets have standards to historical kits so it reflects the rarity of these variations.
or
2. Everything occured, think of how much didn't make into photographs, we should represent all these tangents and fluctuations to show people how diverse ww2 combat infantrymen infact really were.
Looks like most of you have chosen #2
Im going to put this in the poll section.
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Post by 5thrangerinfantry on May 18, 2007 16:11:29 GMT -5
Some people stick with the 'norm', Some people do specific vets or specific units.
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Post by Tough Ombre on May 18, 2007 16:48:03 GMT -5
It really depends, i didnt mean to start all this hubbub... i just wanted everyone to know that it DID happen. Actually the story you are telling 2nd Bat sounds very familiar. Im starting to think that i heard it from you haha. Anyways, i prefer to a mix between the norm, and pics i have seen where stuff stood out. -Cary
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on May 18, 2007 17:54:01 GMT -5
I highly encourage everyone to try and focus on what was commonplace and to a large degree avoid the exceptional or unusual as it detracts for a typical uniform impression. Realize that anything exceptional is going to be questioned by those "In the know".
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Red
Private
All-Americans All the Way!
Posts: 254
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Post by Red on May 18, 2007 19:15:01 GMT -5
Well have to make this comment, because he insisted does it mean they did? not really... also he didn't mention if one of his men happened to be a mis dropped 82nd guy... I want more pictorial evidence on this one... then 3 guys...
Doc Butzen
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TommyGunner
Staff Sgt.
Hackjob Mauro
1st Marine Division, 1942
Posts: 2,265
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Post by TommyGunner on May 18, 2007 22:09:03 GMT -5
While I am a strong supporter of creating an impression that will go against the grain simply to expose new avanues and expand peoples minds as to what had occured (gear wise especially with the USMC) markings are one of those things that were almost universal for a unit as to how they wore them or the certain variations of the markings per year or campaign ect.... and I belive that when portraying any type of unit markings are one of the few items that I think that it should go with the norm.
Im still deciphering USMC markings by the way, as to how they were portrayed in the battle field, thats why I dont even wear them as it seems more didnt have markings on there field uniforms than those who did. This of course also differed by campiagn too.
I say dont wear it when reenacting seeing as it was something that damn near non did, but dont be afraid to bust it out everyonce and awhile simply to get people interested and question it, then you can expand there minds with soemthign new that challanges there knowledge.
TommyGunner
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on May 19, 2007 1:13:36 GMT -5
Often times books mislabel units and this creates confusion as well. In the case of the veterans I was speaking with they were all 101st vets but from a wide assortment of regiments (Glider and parachute) I was very surpirsied to hear of a 101st trooper wearing a flag and specifically asked if the trooper was 101st. The veteran said he was and that their whole battalion was ordered to put them on (Very last minute and no time to sew them on.) Other 101st soldiers said they got them handed to them but never put them on while most others said their units never were given any. 101st with invasion flags at Normandy is clearly an exception and quite rare. I have never seen a confirmed picture of 101st with them on but have seen several books who attributed the flag bearing troopers as 101st while the same picture in other sources were referenced as 82nd troopers which was probably the case. I'd love to see a picture with both the screaming eagle apparent and the invasion flag but never have.
If I were doing a 101st impression I would NOT attach the invasion flag unless I could pin down the specific battalion and decided to depict them and was willing to substantiate my decision more clearly.
I hope that adds clarity to my blasphomy.
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Post by shellshokt on May 19, 2007 10:22:01 GMT -5
Thanks for the comments guys, phew take the flag off, leave it on, put 82nd badges up? I think I will remove the flag. It does tend to stick out a bit when skirmishing. BTW the boots are painted british combats, looking for some reasonably priced Cocorans to finish off the impression. Helmet net & scrim in the pipeline.
As for putting the .45 mag pouches on the suspenders. I did this for practical reasons. I tried fitting the pouch on the rear of the cartridge belt but found it an absolute bugger to get the mags in and out in a hurry. I also saw one of the cast in band of brothers with the mag pouch fitted to the suspenders, tried it and it 'works for me'.
Regards 'shokt
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Nimlas
Master sergeant
grumpy
Posts: 1,594
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Post by Nimlas on May 19, 2007 10:38:58 GMT -5
I also saw one of the cast in band of brothers with the mag pouch fitted to the suspenders, tried it and it 'works for me'. Regards 'shokt In the future.....I would refrain from making reference to BoB....blegh
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on May 19, 2007 13:02:49 GMT -5
I am very confident that a trooper armed with a Garand and 45 would place the mag pouch as you did since it is both logical and functional and just as you discovered placing it in the back rendered it virtually inaccessible. A guy with a shoulder holster (Fairly rare) would no doubt have come up with the same arrangement you did. I think it all looks great!
We are often influenced by Hollywood and want to look like they looked. Be careful there as often times the "Looks" they provide do not present an accurate, historically correct, depiction. BoB and SPR are way better then most, but flawed. Whole threads on other sites that pick apart even miniscule things.
My favorite illustration of this common illussion is how enamored I became as a kid with the yellow stripe on the trousers of US Cavalrymen during the Indian wars. (As depicted so commonly in John Wayne movies) It becme the identifying characteristic of a cavalry uniform and anything without it just didn't look right. (Even the real unifroms in the museums just didn't satisfy.) A more recent example is in Mel Gibsons Revolutionary war epoch The Patriot. Even though the technical advisor protested, they decided the British Cavalry had to be wearing bright Red short jackets to "Look the part" even though they would actually have been wearing Green tunics.
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Post by shellshokt on May 19, 2007 14:24:05 GMT -5
Thanks 2nd Bat. As I don't have anything else to carry the M1911 in at the moment, I use it for my airborne impression. In some of the tunnel & bunker areas at my local airsoft site a full sized rifle just isn't practical.
Did the 'common' trooper carry a sidearm, or is that another 'hollywood' myth? In that program that should not be mentioned, quite a few of the troopers had .45's
Regards 'shokt
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twombly
Private
Teufelhunden
Posts: 56
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Post by twombly on May 19, 2007 16:44:17 GMT -5
If it was same as in the regular infantry, only the officers and S/NCO's had the sidearm...
Correct me if i'm wrong.
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