Post by 2nd Bat on Feb 7, 2011 16:03:17 GMT -5
SGT TOM you better than most should understand this! You offered a custom rifle, (Kar 98, and other models I believe) home built at an extremeley affordable price given the labor expense and time involved. At a price point above what you see as a reasonable price? Hmmmmm that's weird. You have attempted building your own Garand conversion neither of which was ever finished. Two + years into it? So the do-it-yourself, save the money approach. Hows that working for you? After introducing your offerings you quickly determined that it was not a sound business you are unable to support so you no longer build rifles. Fairly telling I would submit. This isn't a dig at all as I admire greatly your efforts and enthusiasm and know that your motives are sound and unselfish. You just didn't realize the time requirements, expenses or frustrations involved. I just spent two months on a SMLE that I thought I could finish and ship out in two weeks!
Again, all of this comes back to economies of scale which is the very reason the AEG Garand has simply not been introduced to date. The arguments against a high price being quite persuasive. Clearly sales would be higher at a price point of $200.00 than $500.00 but honestly how much bigger? The simple fact is the 20 to 30 buyers on this site aren't going to tip the scale and most airsofters in the 99% range want a tiny BB hose that looks modern. They don't want a long, heavy rifle that fires semi automatic and holds eight rounds! With the exception of the Mosin Nagant all the recent WW2 introductions have either been sub machine guns or replicas of extremely rare and expensive historical weapons in the collector market MP44!
Selling more, is not particularly attractive if the net result is you lost money on each rifle. "I lost money on each rifle sold but I made it up in volume." doesn't compute!"The fact is the initial set up and production costs for a new product model are enormous. (less so if you simply reverse engineer an existing product.) Still substantial however!
To the uneducated a Garand AEG shouldn't cost any more to PRODUCE than say an M14 and indeed that is correct however...If the market is so small (which it is) and you know you won't sell anywhere near as many as you would an M14 (even when shared amongst six other manufacturers) or you fear that once produced your design will be cloned and you will be competing against other manufacturers in a further deminished market you have to consider at what point is my set up cost returned?
What do you all imagine the cost of set up for a new model airsoft rifle is? Even when common items such as gear boxes and hop up units can be shared and even in a 3rd world country it is still huge. Thousands and thousands of dollars. If it is $50,000.00 (I suspect it is considerably higher than that) Even before factoring in the production and materials costs of rifles you make that set up cost has to be factored into your price model. If it is spread out amongst anticipated sales of 10,000 units that's only five bucks a gun...(No big deal) If it's spread out amongst 1,000 sales that's 50.00 per rifle and if it's factored into 100 its $500.00 per gun. If you're the manufacturer and you aren't sure what the total world wide demand for your rifle is, you're looking at a gamble. Lower price means more volume but will it be enough? Higher price means less sales but a higher likelihood you'll recoup your initial output.
For years I've watched folks go through the hand wringing of not figuring out why any airsoft manufacturers wanted to go after the WW2 market. Risk and return is the reason. A low volumne offering is going to have to demand a higher price or it will never be built. Except by nut jobs and fanatic enthusiasts. (That would be me apparently) When my offerings were $750.00 and no where near as nice as they are now I sold nearly as many of them as I did when I improved them and lowered the price by over $300.00. The improvements in the design probably had more to do with the increase sales than the price actually. Small market but if people wanted it they paid for it. All lowering my price probably did was reduce my net return. (And put some more rifles in peoples hands which was my ultimate goal)
Custom and low volume rifles will be more expensive plain and simple. Unless the marketplace will support that fact, the items will simply not be made available. Insufficient market to support the risk. In the case of the Garand I truly believe an affordable well done offering in the $400.00 and under range would really suprise the manufacturers and reward the development and frankly sell in nearly the same volume as the same rifle at $150.00.
People who want it bad enough will pay it. I'd rather see a manufacturer enter this market with a price policy that will show them a return on their investment and give us what we need than a manufacturer come into this market, lose money and give up on it. Discouraging others from addressing our needs.
Of all the MP40 AEGs, MP44s and the PPSHs most didn't sell to the WW2 airsofters...they sold to airsofters or gun collectors who thought they looked cool. How many would go with a semi automatic low mag capacity Garand? That's the tough question. I think it is such an iconic weapon that it would do well and I really hope ICS or someone else agrees with that.
The business case for a $150.00 Garand AEG is just not there guys. I wish that wasn't true but it is. I be thrilled when any well done offering is actually made available and if the price point is under $400.00 I will be all over it.
I can't wait to hang up the workshop enterprise and my wife would be thrilled to see me find better, far more lucrative and productive things to do with my time.
Again, all of this comes back to economies of scale which is the very reason the AEG Garand has simply not been introduced to date. The arguments against a high price being quite persuasive. Clearly sales would be higher at a price point of $200.00 than $500.00 but honestly how much bigger? The simple fact is the 20 to 30 buyers on this site aren't going to tip the scale and most airsofters in the 99% range want a tiny BB hose that looks modern. They don't want a long, heavy rifle that fires semi automatic and holds eight rounds! With the exception of the Mosin Nagant all the recent WW2 introductions have either been sub machine guns or replicas of extremely rare and expensive historical weapons in the collector market MP44!
Selling more, is not particularly attractive if the net result is you lost money on each rifle. "I lost money on each rifle sold but I made it up in volume." doesn't compute!"The fact is the initial set up and production costs for a new product model are enormous. (less so if you simply reverse engineer an existing product.) Still substantial however!
To the uneducated a Garand AEG shouldn't cost any more to PRODUCE than say an M14 and indeed that is correct however...If the market is so small (which it is) and you know you won't sell anywhere near as many as you would an M14 (even when shared amongst six other manufacturers) or you fear that once produced your design will be cloned and you will be competing against other manufacturers in a further deminished market you have to consider at what point is my set up cost returned?
What do you all imagine the cost of set up for a new model airsoft rifle is? Even when common items such as gear boxes and hop up units can be shared and even in a 3rd world country it is still huge. Thousands and thousands of dollars. If it is $50,000.00 (I suspect it is considerably higher than that) Even before factoring in the production and materials costs of rifles you make that set up cost has to be factored into your price model. If it is spread out amongst anticipated sales of 10,000 units that's only five bucks a gun...(No big deal) If it's spread out amongst 1,000 sales that's 50.00 per rifle and if it's factored into 100 its $500.00 per gun. If you're the manufacturer and you aren't sure what the total world wide demand for your rifle is, you're looking at a gamble. Lower price means more volume but will it be enough? Higher price means less sales but a higher likelihood you'll recoup your initial output.
For years I've watched folks go through the hand wringing of not figuring out why any airsoft manufacturers wanted to go after the WW2 market. Risk and return is the reason. A low volumne offering is going to have to demand a higher price or it will never be built. Except by nut jobs and fanatic enthusiasts. (That would be me apparently) When my offerings were $750.00 and no where near as nice as they are now I sold nearly as many of them as I did when I improved them and lowered the price by over $300.00. The improvements in the design probably had more to do with the increase sales than the price actually. Small market but if people wanted it they paid for it. All lowering my price probably did was reduce my net return. (And put some more rifles in peoples hands which was my ultimate goal)
Custom and low volume rifles will be more expensive plain and simple. Unless the marketplace will support that fact, the items will simply not be made available. Insufficient market to support the risk. In the case of the Garand I truly believe an affordable well done offering in the $400.00 and under range would really suprise the manufacturers and reward the development and frankly sell in nearly the same volume as the same rifle at $150.00.
People who want it bad enough will pay it. I'd rather see a manufacturer enter this market with a price policy that will show them a return on their investment and give us what we need than a manufacturer come into this market, lose money and give up on it. Discouraging others from addressing our needs.
Of all the MP40 AEGs, MP44s and the PPSHs most didn't sell to the WW2 airsofters...they sold to airsofters or gun collectors who thought they looked cool. How many would go with a semi automatic low mag capacity Garand? That's the tough question. I think it is such an iconic weapon that it would do well and I really hope ICS or someone else agrees with that.
The business case for a $150.00 Garand AEG is just not there guys. I wish that wasn't true but it is. I be thrilled when any well done offering is actually made available and if the price point is under $400.00 I will be all over it.
I can't wait to hang up the workshop enterprise and my wife would be thrilled to see me find better, far more lucrative and productive things to do with my time.