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Post by m1thum on Feb 23, 2011 11:05:43 GMT -5
I'm a newbie here, but have been on a quest to achieve the a color/hue and texture for a World War II US issue weapon for some time. It's just me I suppose, but I feel a deep black doesn't look right for this period. It's as bad as those Phillips head screws encountered in prominent places on WWII airsoft weapons, but that's a story in itself.... I wanted a weapon to have a fresh, medium grey look with a greenish hue and that dead-ish phosphate texture. After trial and error (mostly error --12 spray paints and an equal number of acrylic liquid ones, my having sworn that I found the exact color...24 times )and some very valuable advice from White Rook, I have found what I have been seeking. In my quest, my first major error was trying to find one magical color to to the job. According to White Rook, it really doesn't exist; his advice had me changing course. I ended up getting it right with an oil/enamel base coat and an acrylic wash (of sorts). Here's what I have done to a cheap but rather accurate looking M1911a1 (the "Y285"): 1. Base- Two coats of Rustoleum Deep Forest Green Camoflage in a rattle can (second coat can be applied within 15 minutes of the first). This stuff will actually almost get you there, but it's just a tad too green. It is the absolute right color for the job, however and has a dead phosphate look to it. Wait 24 hours before moving to the next step. 2. Acrylic wash mix - I used a medium grey with a bit of Winsor & Newton black (5 parts to 1), mixed with enough water to make a dark gray thick cream. Mix the colors and water very well to avoid black streaks on application; 3. Application of the wash - using a brush, completely and genrously coat the part and let it sit for 20 seconds or so. Then, gently wipe off the wash with a paper towel with long uniform strokes. Don't scrub it off, be gentle so as to remove all the grey paint while leaving the dampness. That leftover dampness on the part will briefly turn the green base to a dark green, but not to worry; it will quickly dry into a uniform, dead, grey translucence. Add a second coat in a similar manner (as soon as you like--these are acrylics) and use the same care to remove the paint to leave a non-streaky haze-like covering. 4. Once satisfied with the color/texture (it should have a green cast, but only a cast), apply (SPRAY) Testors Dullcote to protect it. I was so happy with the color, I was hesitant to use the Dullcote thinking it might change everything. Applying it, I thought, is necessary to protect the acrylic part of the finish, so I'd have no choice. Man! I was totally psyched when the part came out with an even better, phosphate look and more mellow. In closing, while the base and the dullcote steps are rather simple (just keep that can moving to avoid runs), the wash is slightly trickier (not difficult at all, just not as simple as the first and last steps). That said, this trickier step is a completely reversible one. If you don't like a certain area, wipe it down with a damp paper towel and do it again. Remember that, while you want the green grey look in this process, no one such look is the precise and absolute one Given the different batches of phosphate mixture, contractor methodology, climate variations, etc. there are countless shades and hues of gray and green among original weapons, even on one weapon. "Uniform" was, and remains, a relative term. Heck, if a group of WWII GIs were to be identified solely by the color of their uniforms--the exact same articles--one would swear each guy was from a different army. One guy's cap would be tan, the next guy's mustard, and the guy's next to him light green. So, you're looking to be in the range, not standing on a dime. Of course, you'll want to break down your weapon-- to the extent possible --before the process, and ensure you won't haven't impeded the operation of moving parts through the application of the finish. In one photo, the trigger finish is scraped; this is not a bad thing. It's easy enough to touch up such areas, and such tangible "feedback" tells me where a thinner finish is to be applied. --m1thum
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Post by whiterook on Feb 23, 2011 12:53:58 GMT -5
OMG! It truly looks awesome! You did a fanatasic job finding the right mix. Please, please put the gun back together and show us the finished product! As a side note: on my 1911, I used a black wash on the plastic diamond cut hand grips and covered it with dullcote ... made them look like bakelite/wood.
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Sgt_Tom
Technical Sgt.
Combat!
Posts: 3,580
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Post by Sgt_Tom on Feb 23, 2011 15:16:33 GMT -5
Looks fantastic! How durable is it though?
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Post by freelancer on Feb 23, 2011 16:19:35 GMT -5
Very nice Job.
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Post by newcomer on Feb 23, 2011 18:30:32 GMT -5
holy crap, that turned out nice! I might grab a 1911 just to try it out!
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Post by m1thum on Feb 23, 2011 22:33:13 GMT -5
I'll reassemble the .45 once I get another can of Dullcote, having run out before hitting the slide with it. As for durability, I can't honestly answer the question yet since the .45 is still in pieces. I'm pretty sure it's not as tough as the real deal, but it is a Rustoleum oil base and tough top-coat. In addition, touching it up should be a breeze (as opposed to parkerizing). White Rook is honestly the one who enlightened me with the oil/acrylic/top coat method; I'll wager he'll have an idea as to durability in the field.
I appreciate the compliments very much!
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Post by whiterook on Feb 23, 2011 22:38:55 GMT -5
White Rook is honestly the one who enlightened me with the oil/acrylic/top coat method; I'll wager he'll have an idea as to durability in the field. I have run with my M1A1 Thompson in the field for 9 months now. No sign of wear. Dullcote is a lacquer based spray and is a real protector.
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Sgt_Tom
Technical Sgt.
Combat!
Posts: 3,580
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Post by Sgt_Tom on Feb 23, 2011 22:52:14 GMT -5
Sounds very nice, I'll have to try it on my Garand and Thompson! Thanks for the guide!
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Post by zbear on Feb 25, 2011 23:45:07 GMT -5
You realize they were not that color during the war? Over the years as the finish has oxidized it has turned green. It should be light to medium gray. Some milspec parkerizing from WW2 is almost charcoal gray to start with after it comes out of the solution.
The reason old parkerizing changes colors is that there was a minuscule amount of copper and other minerals in the water that was used for the treatment. Over the years that copper oxidizes turning green. Since the amount of copper in the water was not consistent you get different shades of green.
When I was in gunsmith school in Colorado we would not parkerize or blue for several days after a rain for the same reason. The run off would contain too much copper and minerals to get a good finish. I had done some that turned out a deep olive drab after a couple of years.
However saying all that your finish looks good.
buyer beware if you are looking at some older WW2 guns, some unscrupulous vendors will chemically age recently parkerized guns to give them that patina.
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Sgt_Tom
Technical Sgt.
Combat!
Posts: 3,580
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Post by Sgt_Tom on Feb 26, 2011 0:31:03 GMT -5
Thanks for that info zbear, I think I may not use this technique then.
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Post by m1thum on Feb 26, 2011 11:34:26 GMT -5
Actually and respectfully, I can't say that I agree, and I'm not sure many of the pundits will either. While I am admittedly not a gunsmith, and while it is true that factory zinc parkerizing left a coating ranging from medium grey to charcoal, by the time they were actually issued, many WWII weapons indeed had the greenish tint and over time, the tint often became a true green. My pistol has a greenish tint, similar to that of a newly issued pistol. Were all WWII US weapons greenish gray? I'm sure they weren't. However, a very, very great number of them were indeed that color. The most common and accepted theory behind the green color was the reaction of the zinc phosphate in the parkerizing to the homogeneous mixture of oily and waxy hydrocarbons found in cosmoline. Cosmoline was the very tenacious grease-like substance in which these weapons were packed for storage & shipment. An illustrative tidbit: I spoke with one vet who, upon being issued a brand new M-1 rifle in 1954, had to remove the thick cosmoline coating from the rifle (he and his fellow draftees ended up having to resort to using issue-undershirts...we didn't get into what, if anything, happened to those guys for that). He vividly recalled trying to scrub off a greenish coloring to the metal until he realized that the metal was green. He, the son of a New Jersey farmer, also chuckled when he noticed that his rifle had been made by the same company that made the family tractor, International Harvester. I don't believe International Harvester rifles were issued until at least some time during 1953, so it is very likely that the parkerizing/cosmoline reaction had set in during the relatively short time between manufacture and issue. I personally spent nearly two years restoring a WWII Winchester M-1 rifle, spending most of the hours doing research. I had the bolt, op rod, butt-plate and clip latch reparked in WWII zinc gray (by a very skilled and knowledgeable professional). He was kind enough to provide me with a small tub of cosmoline for coating the parts. Within 4 months, the newly reparkerized pieces very nearly matched the greenish hue of the parts I didn't refinish). In closing I humbly offer the following treatise by the world's foremost authority on M-1 Garand rifles, Scott Duff, regarding the color of parkerizing: PARKERIZING COLORS An Historical Perspective by Scott A. Duff If you want to start an argument among collectors of U.S. Military Small Arms ask: "What color Parkerizing is original?" This seemingly simple question will provoke endless discussion, and provide a wider variety of answers than one could assume possible. Research conducted in the preparation of several Ml rifle related books has provided the opportunity to examine thousands of Garands, including hundreds of rifles in original configuration. Observations indicate the color of the Parkerized finish varied with the conditions under which the Parkerizing was applied, the era of the rifle's manufacture and the condition and length of time they were stored. Specific factors affecting the color resulting from the Parkerizing process include the type of phosphate used, the temperature and duration of the process, the saturating oil bath, and the preservative coating's reaction on the com-pounds contained in the Parkerizing. In addition, the method and chemicals used in heat treating and the specified hardness of the individual component also affected the finish color. For instance, a softer metal has a darker finish than a harder one. Descriptions of variations in color and shade are subjective, and the same finish may be described differently by two different people. With that in mind, original finishes have been observed which are: charcoal black, gloss black, black with a noticeable green tint, dark olive green, a light, almost translucent gray, and translucent gray with a green cast. The earliest original rifles examined are in the collection at Springfield Armory National Historic Site. These rifles, serial numbers 81,87, 79115, 100,000, 1 million, 2 million and 3 million, are in "as-new" condition. They were deemed of historical significance, and generally transferred directly from the factory to the museum shortly after manufacture. They all are of charcoal black color. Early production Winchester Ml's are of the same color. None of these rifles have been coated with Cosmoline or saturated with oil. It is interesting to note that M14 rifles were not subject to Cosmoline coating and are the same color as these early Garands. Other Ml rifles manufactured during this era which have seen service, have been observed to be of gloss black or dark green finish. It is believed that the gloss black is primarily a result of repeated cleaning with solvent and oil-soaked rags which gave an almost polished effect to the finish. The frequently encountered, dark green Parkerized finish is believed to be primarily a result of the compounds present in the Parkerized finish chemically reacting to the Cosmoline used for corrosion prevention during long term storage. Observations of original Garands manufactured by Springfield and Winchester indicate a change in the finish color from black to a translucent gray during the late summer of 1944. The Parkerizing process used to finish Ml's of post World War 11 manufacture appears to have returned to the charcoal black finish. If the rifle has been stored in Cosmoline, a green tint may be noted. So, what color Parkerizing is original? Most "as new" Garands are charcoal black. Original finishes of gloss black, black with a noticeable green tint, dark olive green, a light, almost translucent gray, and translucent gray with a green cast have been observed. The variables mentioned above and more than fifty years of use and storage make it impossible to give a specific answer. However, one thing is certain; the argument among collectors and aficionados will continue.
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Sgt_Tom
Technical Sgt.
Combat!
Posts: 3,580
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Post by Sgt_Tom on Feb 26, 2011 12:46:44 GMT -5
Actually and respectfully, I can't say that I agree, and I'm not sure many of the pundits will either. While I am admittedly not a gunsmith, and while it is true that factory zinc parkerizing left a coating ranging from medium grey to charcoal, by the time they were actually issued, many WWII weapons indeed had the greenish tint and over time, the tint often became a true green. My pistol has a greenish tint, similar to that of a newly issued pistol. Were all WWII US weapons greenish gray? I'm sure they weren't. However, a very, very great number of them were indeed that color. The most common and accepted theory behind the green color was the reaction of the zinc phosphate in the parkerizing to the homogeneous mixture of oily and waxy hydrocarbons found in cosmoline. Cosmoline was the very tenacious grease-like substance in which these weapons were packed for storage & shipment. An illustrative tidbit: I spoke with one vet who, upon being issued a brand new M-1 rifle in 1954, had to remove the thick cosmoline coating from the rifle (he and his fellow draftees ended up having to resort to using issue-undershirts...we didn't get into what, if anything, happened to those guys for that). He vividly recalled trying to scrub off a greenish coloring to the metal until he realized that the metal was green. He, the son of a New Jersey farmer, also chuckled when he noticed that his rifle had been made by the same company that made the family tractor, International Harvester. I don't believe International Harvester rifles were issued until at least some time during 1953, so it is very likely that the parkerizing/cosmoline reaction had set in during the relatively short time between manufacture and issue. I personally spent nearly two years restoring a WWII Winchester M-1 rifle, spending most of the hours doing research. I had the bolt, op rod, butt-plate and clip latch reparked in WWII zinc gray (by a very skilled and knowledgeable professional). He was kind enough to provide me with a small tub of cosmoline for coating the parts. Within 4 months, the newly reparkerized pieces very nearly matched the greenish hue of the parts I didn't refinish). In closing I humbly offer the following treatise by the world's foremost authority on M-1 Garand rifles, Scott Duff, regarding the color of parkerizing: PARKERIZING COLORS An Historical Perspective by Scott A. Duff If you want to start an argument among collectors of U.S. Military Small Arms ask: "What color Parkerizing is original?" This seemingly simple question will provoke endless discussion, and provide a wider variety of answers than one could assume possible. Research conducted in the preparation of several Ml rifle related books has provided the opportunity to examine thousands of Garands, including hundreds of rifles in original configuration. Observations indicate the color of the Parkerized finish varied with the conditions under which the Parkerizing was applied, the era of the rifle's manufacture and the condition and length of time they were stored. Specific factors affecting the color resulting from the Parkerizing process include the type of phosphate used, the temperature and duration of the process, the saturating oil bath, and the preservative coating's reaction on the com-pounds contained in the Parkerizing. In addition, the method and chemicals used in heat treating and the specified hardness of the individual component also affected the finish color. For instance, a softer metal has a darker finish than a harder one. Descriptions of variations in color and shade are subjective, and the same finish may be described differently by two different people. With that in mind, original finishes have been observed which are: charcoal black, gloss black, black with a noticeable green tint, dark olive green, a light, almost translucent gray, and translucent gray with a green cast. The earliest original rifles examined are in the collection at Springfield Armory National Historic Site. These rifles, serial numbers 81,87, 79115, 100,000, 1 million, 2 million and 3 million, are in "as-new" condition. They were deemed of historical significance, and generally transferred directly from the factory to the museum shortly after manufacture. They all are of charcoal black color. Early production Winchester Ml's are of the same color. None of these rifles have been coated with Cosmoline or saturated with oil. It is interesting to note that M14 rifles were not subject to Cosmoline coating and are the same color as these early Garands. Other Ml rifles manufactured during this era which have seen service, have been observed to be of gloss black or dark green finish. It is believed that the gloss black is primarily a result of repeated cleaning with solvent and oil-soaked rags which gave an almost polished effect to the finish. The frequently encountered, dark green Parkerized finish is believed to be primarily a result of the compounds present in the Parkerized finish chemically reacting to the Cosmoline used for corrosion prevention during long term storage. Observations of original Garands manufactured by Springfield and Winchester indicate a change in the finish color from black to a translucent gray during the late summer of 1944. The Parkerizing process used to finish Ml's of post World War 11 manufacture appears to have returned to the charcoal black finish. If the rifle has been stored in Cosmoline, a green tint may be noted. So, what color Parkerizing is original? Most "as new" Garands are charcoal black. Original finishes of gloss black, black with a noticeable green tint, dark olive green, a light, almost translucent gray, and translucent gray with a green cast have been observed. The variables mentioned above and more than fifty years of use and storage make it impossible to give a specific answer. However, one thing is certain; the argument among collectors and aficionados will continue. Well I can't argue if you actually re-parkerized your rifle and saw it turning a greenish color within 4 months. Good information!
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Post by volkssturm on Feb 28, 2011 0:35:49 GMT -5
Yes. Good info. Thanks for posting it.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Feb 28, 2011 1:33:46 GMT -5
If you look at extensive pictures of field used Garands (especially color photos) you will notice that the metal changed shades rather quickly and at very different rates depending on the hardness of the metals which varied on diferent parts of the rifle. The gas lock at the muzzle quickly turned light and often into an almost silver aluminum while the bolts and barrels remained quite dark. Wear points naturally showed up from use and each rifle over time would take on a somewhat unique appearance. Solvents used, field conditions and exposure to the elements suggests a wide variety of looks would in fact be quite authentic.
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Post by m1thum on Feb 28, 2011 8:40:37 GMT -5
Well said 2nd Bat; you managed to hit the nail on the head without the blathering that I managed to bore everyone with. I neglected to mention that I'd had the rear sight cover of the M-1 parked as well. That part was still a light grey after the cosmoline treatment, and stayed that color as long as I owned the rifle (1 year post restoration).
--M1thum
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roadwarrior
Private
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Posts: 262
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Post by roadwarrior on Aug 4, 2011 1:42:34 GMT -5
Sorry to bump, but the pictures have broken.
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