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Post by spitfire740 on Mar 16, 2008 18:54:52 GMT -5
Sure you guys look all pretty and colorful in your new marine uniforms... Just wait till you have a dozen screaming japanese men charging at you. I forsee a big wet spot around the crotch of those uniforms in the near future
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 16, 2008 18:56:36 GMT -5
I hope you guys are having fun with this thread. I for one was glad to see someone post some PTO impressions and loved the idea of a mixed bag showing a variety of looks all in one shot. Great job. Call me crazy but don't we call them impressions? I didn't realize we called them museum displays.
You guys looked great and the subsequent litney of "I know more then you do...nonsense" is getting really old. I'm sure there are many who enjoy such things and if so knock yourselves out fellas but yikes! I've now learned more then I care to know about Marine Corp gear and clothing and my head hurts. I have heard many a Marine veteran state that their gear was a broad combination of whatever hand me downs were available and if gear was available and would do the job it was used.
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Post by troyluginbill on Mar 16, 2008 19:00:30 GMT -5
Just a quick reply to Russians piece ( he was writing while I was.)
I agree that good wool can be quite comfortable in 90-100 degree weather. Especially humid. I wear it camping as it can keep you cool during the day and warm at night.
That noted I would also like to say that I find your info to be very informative. I enjoy that you back up your pieces with references and say keep it up. I am always open to new information.
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Post by troyluginbill on Mar 16, 2008 19:03:01 GMT -5
In reply to spitfire- LOL! That reminds me of my son sniping in a game once, he was dug in and had a perfect shot. He was 10 and didn't want to stop the game so he just wet himself. Then took out 2 guys setting up a Light MG. Not even I am that hardcore!
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Russian
Corporal
Magician
Posts: 923
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Post by Russian on Mar 16, 2008 19:47:13 GMT -5
Well played, Gyrene. Didn't call me an idiot, made your claim, and backed it up with photos. I'm willing to admit the jacket pictured might be an HBT jacket.
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Post by troyluginbill on Mar 16, 2008 20:42:47 GMT -5
Well nobody asked but here we go: These are pics from DOD usmc collection: 1st Division at Cape Glouchester Bougainville. Camo is sparse except for artillery units which would be under 1st MAC at that point but reinforcing 1st Div action. Probably worn green out amidst the jungle too! (Although how anyone can tell colors in B&W unless you have both in frame as a reference still escapes me.)
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Post by troyluginbill on Mar 16, 2008 20:43:50 GMT -5
Looking at the artillery photo those almost look like the 1 piece cammies.
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Post by troyluginbill on Mar 16, 2008 22:08:35 GMT -5
Well, okay, New Britain, which was part of the Bougainville campaign. The pics are identified as Cape Glouchester, which the 1st Division was tasked with taking the cape on Dec 26, 1943 (off of a little island called New Britain-tip of the hat for detail Gyrene). They called it the green inferno. (the top is a pic of major general Bill Rupertus commanding.) My understanding is that they were in relief of MacArthurs forces on New Guinea, not the marines at bougainville. This would have been during the time of the 1st MAC which would have put army and navy forces under joint command and would have been one of many small simultaneous actions in late 1943.
Overall that wasn't really my point though. My point is that camo, while not standard among all divisions, could, would and was issued to many divisions/battalions and regiments. To say that "they never had it" is not entirely accurate either. With that statement made I am sure I will open the pandoras box of what is/is not appropriate to do an impression of (general or specific).
AAAAAANNNNDDDDDD.......exit stage right before the fur flies.
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TommyGunner
Staff Sgt.
Hackjob Mauro
1st Marine Division, 1942
Posts: 2,265
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Post by TommyGunner on Mar 16, 2008 22:14:33 GMT -5
Sorry man but the P12 screams repro to me (i have been COLLECTING for 10 years) your p12 pouch looks like its a Harlin repro and the m-1910 pouch looks like it might be. It could be a schipperfabrik repro maybe a old AEF supply i know they mark theres long 1918 how much did you pay for these ? As a original p12 pouch should be in the 175 to 200 range!!!! , and 1910 pouch's should be 25-50 depending on condition. Cody Trust me they really are original. I got these from a guy who has been collecting for over 25 years. A personall friend of mine. He got these when you could still find military surplus lots with unnissued gear, which both items are. He only had a few of these left and becuase I was one of his frequent customers to his surplus store (before he had to close shop) he took me to his home one day and said I can pick out anything I want and have it. I got alot of original stuff from him (WW1 and WW2). Besides Im familiar with both repros you are talking about and almost bought some for reenacting with but didnt. When you put them side by side you can tell the original from the reproductions very easly, which is what I did when I saw the reproduction. I got alot of USMC gear from him and he charged me very little for most items ($20 for a 44 dated poncho!! in mint condition) I have very few reprodution peices of gear. TommyGunner
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TommyGunner
Staff Sgt.
Hackjob Mauro
1st Marine Division, 1942
Posts: 2,265
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Post by TommyGunner on Mar 16, 2008 23:07:07 GMT -5
Great discussion guys, this is exactly the type of information and forum conduct I was hopeing for with this thread. Lets keep it up!! ;D Remeber too guys that if any of you have USMC Imps (Complete please) post them up so we can see the gear we are all discussing too TommyGunner
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Post by collisi0n on Mar 17, 2008 0:06:54 GMT -5
Iwo Jima with "captured" type 99. Sorry, no garand. The stuff's dirtier than it looks and I forgot to take off the damn blue tint.
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Post by troyluginbill on Mar 17, 2008 0:08:53 GMT -5
Gyrene,
I always hesitate to say never. The sixth I can understand given how late they were formed and the express request by at least the V MAC to stop ordering frogskins. The fifth, eh, I honestly don't know as I never really paid too much attention to them. The fourth I have to wonder about though as this division is made up of vets from the previous raider battalions. If they liked it wouldn't they have brought it with them?(of course the opposite may also hold true-if it didn't work they would have ditched it fast.) Again I have never really paid much specific attention to them to really look for camos with them.
That last picture is an interesting one. It has an early model amtrack but it looks like the guy bottom on right with his back to us has an M1(a1?) thompson! Those guys are an interesting conglomeration of early and mid war stuff in a heavy jungle. I see the 2 guys with camo shovel covers you are talking about-they almost make me wonder if they are hand done as it is difficult to tell if the pattern matches the frogskin.
Finally-Pics from that part of the PTO always amaze me. Whether USMC, Army, or Brit/Australian-That is a real wall of green they had to go through! Compare those to later rocky island and atoll pics where there is only a charred wasteland to fight through! Both present unique challenges! Adapt, improvise, overcome.
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TommyGunner
Staff Sgt.
Hackjob Mauro
1st Marine Division, 1942
Posts: 2,265
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Post by TommyGunner on Mar 17, 2008 0:45:29 GMT -5
Hey Collision great kit. You should also type up a gear list to go with your imp so we know exactly what you have.
TommyGunner
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Post by collisi0n on Mar 17, 2008 8:49:43 GMT -5
Yeah they felt wrong, put everything on in about 4 minutes.
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TommyGunner
Staff Sgt.
Hackjob Mauro
1st Marine Division, 1942
Posts: 2,265
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Post by TommyGunner on Mar 17, 2008 9:54:51 GMT -5
Well its a great imp collision. Is it all reproduction, also who made the stuff if it is?
Dont feel bad about the Type 99 either. If a Marine ran out of ammo I dont think he would have had a problem with grabbing an enemy gun (though he might be out of ammo too lol) Also it could be a war trophy lol
I knwo that some MG teams if they lost thier 30 cal, or even regular riflemen who needed and MG but couldnt get one would use Jap Mgs instead. I have several pics from Iwo that show this. And from some other campignes. Soemtimes if they took a position they would turn the enemy MG around and fire upon any Japs until they were out of ammo for it, then move on.
It could be risque however becuase the Jap Mgs has a very particular sound.
TommyGunner
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Post by ivymp4 on Mar 17, 2008 10:02:30 GMT -5
looking good collisi0n nice to see some more marines. I should have my pics up in a week . Cody
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Post by CharleyNovember on Mar 17, 2008 15:08:11 GMT -5
So this is a call for pics only if you have a complete impression? This is what I have but I won't post a pic if it is forbidden in this post. Camo Fatigues by WPG Camo Helmet cover by WPG Cartridge belt USMC marked Don't know the maker but it is a repro 1936 suspenders orginal Haversack not sure what year original Canteen original USMC Canteen cover repro I think it is ATF
I am missing some knick knacks but most importantly Boondockers I have some leggings but I believe they are Army leggings. I am not sure. Don't know how to tell the difference.
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Post by Capt. Zak on Mar 17, 2008 16:22:59 GMT -5
Flag Raising Eniwetak, 1944 Check out the Marine on the far right. That's an Army HBT jacket. And do my eyes deceive me or does the flag raiser have an M1 carbine pouch stamped "US"?
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Post by collisi0n on Mar 17, 2008 16:39:04 GMT -5
I'll be taking better pics in the light without flash or blue tint today.
The type 99 is deactivated and actually is a trophy that my grandpa got on okinawa. Customized by the soldier and still has all markings.
Everything of mine is ATF repro except the pack and jungle first aid pouch. The leggings are original.
Thanks for all the compliments!
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TommyGunner
Staff Sgt.
Hackjob Mauro
1st Marine Division, 1942
Posts: 2,265
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Post by TommyGunner on Mar 17, 2008 17:01:04 GMT -5
Hmmmmm True that the rest may be Army personall, but wow, go figure Jeff, man that is a big ol US Stamp on that pouch. Late war or not that is a US stamped pouch pure and simple. And really is a cool find.
Also do my eyes decieve me or do both those Marines also have both their cammo jackets and pants on.
Another cool thing is that those Army Officers have a mix of WW1 type and WW2 made .45 ammo pouches.
TommyGunner
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TommyGunner
Staff Sgt.
Hackjob Mauro
1st Marine Division, 1942
Posts: 2,265
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Post by TommyGunner on Mar 17, 2008 20:13:00 GMT -5
I have done research and asked around and thought that the P44 Utility uniform was not issued in WW2. I have asked many vendors and uniform collectors all of them said that the P44 did not see service till the Korean war. Many have gone on to tell me that they have never seen a WW2 dated P44 uniform, they have seen 45 and latter dated ones.
Now is this true or not becuase I really dont know now. Do you have any pics of the front of Mariens with P44 uniforms on from the front becuase I have not seen any from WW2. That seems to be the only way to tell them apart from the P41. Becuase of the pockets and button arrangement on the front.
TommyGunner
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TommyGunner
Staff Sgt.
Hackjob Mauro
1st Marine Division, 1942
Posts: 2,265
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Post by TommyGunner on Mar 17, 2008 20:33:24 GMT -5
I was actually talking about both, but come to think of it the green ones were the only ones that were ever discussed when I was looking into the P44 uniform. Now why would it be that the cammo ones were issued in WW2 but the green ones were not when they were the same pattern uniform. Very strange, but hey, the USMC has alot of wired Misc gear and reasons for issuing it.
TommyGunner
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Post by Capt. Zak on Mar 17, 2008 22:17:49 GMT -5
The Marines raising the flag on Eniwetok are wearing camouflage P44 utilities, notice the huge 'ass pocket' where a poncho was meant to be stored. That just sounds wrong!
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Post by ivymp4 on Mar 17, 2008 22:35:55 GMT -5
Believe it or not A.S.S. is a acronym and for the life of me can't remember what it stands for Tom could you help me out
Cody
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Post by troyluginbill on Mar 17, 2008 23:43:35 GMT -5
Gyrene, I too was surprised by the camo p44s. Once again a reason I should never say never, everyone I read was fairly adamant about P44s being extremely rare and by associated reason the camos were non-existent. But again never say never....not standard, but not totally absent. (and probably only issued to 50 guys out of the entire service.) Ivy...Doesn't A.S.S stand for "another stupid seargent?" HAHA just kidding. Okay here we go. I will post my impressions later this month, gotta wait for some nice weather. However in the meantime for your delight and delectation. 1 & 2 are pics of the crown jewel of the collection. Recieved in a lot from a local USMC vet wife from WW2 was this USMC Phila Depot 1915 pattern 1910 canteen cover. The snaps are eagle and anchor! The leather is a field modification. She says he carried this throughout the war! I have heard of ww1 era stuff being distributed but this is really something! The second (pics 3&4) is a unique canvas sheath. I cannot tell if it is a field made piece (cut down from a standard machete sheath), experimental or actually issued ( LOTS of research and questions on the mil equip forums and no one has an answer.) I do not believe it to be experimental because it would fit the square tip machete that was interwar period for the USMC and limited issued by 1939. Why they would issue an experimental sheath for a machete no longer standard issue just sounds wrong to me. The field made option is the best explanation but whoever made it had access to a sewing machine as the stitching is too regular, the rivets are not the rivets used on machetes of the period (neither does the metal throat), and the only portion where there is any obvious modification is the hanger which has been moved up and has an aluminum attachment. Of course the fourth explanation is that it is post war so anyone with korean or even VN equip knowledge might be able to tell me something. The makers marks are regular and too faded to read.
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Post by Capt. Zak on Mar 18, 2008 5:27:03 GMT -5
Congrats on those gems Troyluginbill. That's some salty gear. ;D
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Post by troyluginbill on Mar 18, 2008 15:47:22 GMT -5
Yeah I dang near wet myself when I pulled the canteen cover outta the bag!
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Adler69
Master sergeant
Legio Patria Nostra
Posts: 2,859
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Post by Adler69 on Mar 19, 2008 1:32:01 GMT -5
Troy , the canvas sheath looks kinda like the ones issued with the BOLO knife used in Vietnam by LRRPs and USMC RECON units.
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Adler69
Master sergeant
Legio Patria Nostra
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Post by Adler69 on Mar 19, 2008 1:38:19 GMT -5
Here's some pics i have had in my computer for a while Some of this guys have camo on , i think this could be Tarawa this one might be a posed pic , but i liked the Japanese MG The Marine on the background has a trench gun and is it me or is the Marine on the right side of the pic using an assault gas mask bag as a back pack?
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Post by ivymp4 on Mar 21, 2008 22:14:04 GMT -5
here are some of my pics from this weekend 3rd Mar Div BAR(real steel Full Auto from a friend) man on Iwo USMC Tanker
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