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Post by brownien on Oct 23, 2012 14:12:24 GMT -5
Not sure if this is the proper location to post this, but...
Do games have to take place at a paintball/airsoft field? Like the ones owned by airsoft/paintball shops? Or is it allowed to host a game on private property? (given that the area is large enough, away from any big urban areas, and all neighbors who may come in contact with the game in progress are aware of the situation.) Would any paperwork need to be filled out or anything need to be applied for to allow for such an event?
Just out of curiosity is all, I may plan on having an event next summer, depending on if the logistics (the Laws) will allow for an event.
If I was able to safely host a game, between my neighbor and myself, we would have plenty of land (both wooded with small fields intermixed) to game on, and I'm absolutely sure she would have no problem letting us have an event in her woods/property. (I have played 6 person backyard type skirmishes on her property before, with her permission).
My biggest question is the legal/insurance aspect of such an event. Just had this tumbling around in my head today and thought I would ask. ;D
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Oct 23, 2012 17:49:30 GMT -5
It is great hosting an event at a field that is not a paintball field as the terrain tends to be unfamiliar to most of the participants. finding a suitable location with adequate space, privacy and a willing owner being a consistant challenge. insurance sometimes comes up as a concern for property owners but in fact their existing property insurance is usually adequate unless the event is planned as a" for profit" enterprise. dont bring up insurance if you can help it as it is a layer of complexity and expense best avoided. your best insurance is a well written personal waiver signed by everyone, good safety rules, clearly understood by everyone and accepting only responsible players. If they are minors be sure they have a notorized release from their legal guardian. insure adequate safety glasses are worn and people clear their weapons and dont horse around in the admin areas. (This is where most airsoft injuries occure.)
It sounds like you have a cooperative neighbor and that is huge. figure out how many players the venue can facilitate based on the type of event you intend to run. Controlled scenarios one after the other with breaks in between require far less room than free wheeling force on force continuous events.
plan a small event intially and cut in half the number of players who say theyll come and build your planned skirmishes accordingly. i heartilly recommend a payment in advance to secure enrollment with an increased fee for walk ons who didnt prepay the day of the event.
getting some cash flow up front will help with expenses associated with props, promoting the event and general expenses which will always be more than you expect. create standards of impression and equipment requirements, weapons performance restrictions and a rule set that will be acceptable to you and reasonable number of participants. elicit some reliable help in the way of staff and delegate assignments.
inspect the terrain with concerns for safety, discretion, tactical opportunities, parking admin areas and event flow. create an acceptable map, mark boundaries if neccessary to keep players channalized or from getting lost. have functional radios for admin purposes and spare batteries. Do a com check in the area to insure your radios will function in the area. High tension wires, cell towers etc sometimes impede their use. If there isnt a trail net either create one with dirt bikes or something or figure out how folks will effectively traverse the area.
Start small and build on what you learn. Have fun and try not to fund the whole event out of your own pocket. all too often people decide to put on an event and burden themselves with dept, stress, focus that distracts them from work, school or families and burn out before they get enough events under their belt to start actually enjoying them themselves.
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Post by brownien on Oct 24, 2012 14:30:20 GMT -5
Thanks 2nd! Since it would be on private property, the cost for attendance would be low, and it could be a weekend event without the need to reserve the field! My only other question is, would the use of the simulation type grenades be legal to use in New York State? If they do happen to be legal, All persons not participating within earshot of a grenade detonation would be warned of such a report. As for obstacles and cover, currently only the trees are available. Would this suffice? Its not flat ground, as it is on the side of a large hill/mountain(I'm not sure what you want to call it). If I do set up obstacles, I don't want them to be cheap, but I don't want to go all out, as This would be the first time hosting an event and I would like to get a feel for what is neccessary. I have taken into account the type of layout GZA's fields are, but I wouldn't be able to do something that large in scale. Any tips on barriers, or examples I could build/dig?
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Post by drizzt04 on Oct 24, 2012 23:53:57 GMT -5
barricades are easy. Use the material on hand. It is what most fields do, with the obvious exception of speedball or junkyard fields. And it is also what real soldiers do. Armies dont carry old tires, corrugated pipe, or giant balloons into battle. Use natural terrain, trees, branches, rocks, whatever.
Digging is a whole lot of work, even if you have access to heavy equipment. But if you are ging that route, simple foxholes, quick fire positions, trenches, and full on bunkers are all options.
The number one thing you want to do is decide on the flow of your field. This takes knowing the terrain fully, and having a good eye for tactics. Having a bad layout will break a field. But having a good one makes all the difference between a good event and a great event.
For example, say you have a creek running through with a small bridge over it. Make that bridge an objective. Now stand in the middle of it and look at all the approaches. How do you defend them, and where is the best places for positions. Then go outside that boundary, and how would you attack? Where would you flank? What obstacles would help you accomplish that?
Also, will these be permanent or do they need to be removed after the weekend?
There is a lot to building a good field. Much more than most people believe. I am not trying to discourage you, but you should know in advance what you are looking at.
Leaving the property as is is just as viable an option. Except for hard positions where one of the armies is dug in, most battles are just done out in the open terrain, using trees, rocks, and the land itself as cover. Thats real world though. The down side to leaving it virgin is that it becomes very hard to control the flow of the battle. There will be people all over the place. But even that can be overcome by shrinking the size of the field, thereby forcing conflict. It all depends on the type of game you want.
Take care of the things 2nd said first. Step 2 is learn the field intimately, then come up with your battle plan. Build defences accordingly.
If you want specifics on how to build positions, feel free to email me and I will help you out.
Bill drizztdourden04@aol.com
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Post by brownien on Oct 25, 2012 17:02:34 GMT -5
Thanks for the input guys! I just took a nice walk through my neighbor's woods to refresh my memory. For the most part it is thickly wooded, with plenty of fallen trees due to much careless logging. but a bonus from the logging is many old logging trails! These provide ample trails. Along with the tons of fallen trees, there are the many interwoven old property lines! 40 years back it all used to be farmland, but it all grew up with locust trees (nasty things!) and the old stone rows/piles still remain, and would provide great cover for players. I feel that this larger section would be great for extended scenarios, with many missions. My only other concern is the loaction behind my house. It is a big area in a rectangular shape but both of the long sides are flanked by roads. I would tape off sections, barricading players from going to close to the roads. But I am still concerned about stray rounds somehow finding their way to the road. I never had a problem with it when playing with much smaller groups though. The area is plenty wide to accomidate 2 sides of 15 or 20 players each, but this may be a bit cramped, not allowing for much flanking. Rather, games in this area would likely end up being a tug of war, with the two teams pushing each other back with brute firepower, unlike the larger area, which would be much more tactical. I would love to connect the two, but alas, the are separated by a road.
Lastly, if this type of gameplay was available, would players like to participate? Fast paced tug-of-war OR more tactical with manouvering? If I did host such an event, both would be available for use, so either gameplay style would be possible.
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Post by SfcMigs on Oct 25, 2012 22:38:33 GMT -5
Is this location in Perth, NY?
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Post by brownien on Oct 26, 2012 7:48:41 GMT -5
Yup! Its between Johnstown and Amsterdam NY. About a 10 or 15 min drive from the Interstate 90, Amsterdam and Fonda exits. Not sure how many people would be willing to make the drive out though. Possibly next spring, I will attempt to make up an all weekend event for late spring/early summer. Not sure what the theme could be. Possibly an operation after Market Garden.
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Post by SfcMigs on Oct 26, 2012 13:02:04 GMT -5
Yup! Its between Johnstown and Amsterdam NY. About a 10 or 15 min drive from the Interstate 90, Amsterdam and Fonda exits. Not sure how many people would be willing to make the drive out though. Possibly next spring, I will attempt to make up an all weekend event for late spring/early summer. Not sure what the theme could be. Possibly an operation after Market Garden. Sounds good. The 3rd FG unit from Amsterdam held 2 events at their field back in 07 and 08 I believe. They put on two nice events and had decent attendance from what I can recall. With that being only 15 minutes or so from you location should offer some encouragement. Regarding the date of your event, just want to give you a heads up that I hold the annual "Day of Days" event usually on the first weekend after Memorial Day. Once you get settled, shoot me a PM so we can coordinate our dates so they don't interfere with one another. Good luck and feel free to ask any questions you may have. Migs
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Post by brownien on Oct 26, 2012 15:46:20 GMT -5
I will gladly work around your event! I do wish I could have attended the last Day of Days. I had the Idea to provide "Air Support" to the Allied team. If the airsoft grenades and smoke grenades are in fact illegal in New York State (Can anyone clarify?), I need to think of a way to signal an airstrike to a loitering aircraft. Simplest way would be with a smoke grenade thrown on target, and secondly, possibly map coordinates. But with such a large area, and mostly tree covered, It can be hard to pinpoint yours, and the enemies exact location. Any Ideas? I would have radio contact with the loitering aircraft at all times.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Oct 26, 2012 16:19:46 GMT -5
With adjacent roads you need to create restrictions as to how close players are free to roam. With dense woods I would recommend anyone within 50 feet of a road fence is "out". If it is more open the distnace must be greater. In a perfect world you should ideally mark with boundary tape but this is not always possible. Another thought is twine with strips of white cloth attached in places.
Your initial event is not likely to attract numbers greater than 30 or 40 and will probably be far less. It sounds like your terrain can easily manage that. To keep things from turning into either a stalemate loggerhead or overly predictable Irecommend you run a series of time specific scenarios. One side tasked with defense while the other during the time frame have offensive assignments. Then switch roles. For the offense there should be a three to one (or greater) ratio and this can be dne with regen numbers or by having the defended objectives spread out widely and have three to five of them. Set a time restriction for the offense to accomplish their tasks and score based on the number of tasks accomplished or speed with which they were done. For atmosphere refrain from flags or other contrived or traditional gameplay approaches and instead have tasks like plant demolitions at a series of ammo boxes or retrieve an item from a tent or destroy a gun emplacement or overun an observation post etc.
If you manage through regens give the defenders either none or just one and give the offense many or even unlimited regens. Be sure to think cadefully about regen locations and do not place them near the objectives unless their is a significant "deadtime"
n effect you are stacking the deck which is fine as this will encourage a more fluid and aggressive level of play and hopefully avoid the boredom of a stalemate tactical phase.
If time is available after rotating the offense/ defense phase run a meeting engagement where the objective is centrally located. Another variation of this is to have two different objectives closely located where accomplishing each task will put the two forces in proximity to one another and cause friction and trigger time but still allow both forces to "win". this works best when neither force knows the others objective or location.
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Post by Schmozilla on Oct 26, 2012 17:03:28 GMT -5
I'd make the drive from MA.
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Post by brownien on Oct 31, 2012 16:40:50 GMT -5
Thanks guys! I will definitely have to set up multiple gameplans as you stated. Although, how well would a rolling gameset work?(with ample players per side and a large enough area) I would most likely want to have one day based around quicker, harder hitting games in the smaller area(tug-O-war style), and then have night missions running into a rolling mission set the next day; with two base camps to be defended by each team, multiple objectives in between that are spread out enough to keep one side from being able to defend more than a few easily. Each side would have a commander with a radio that links up with a forward observer. This way, if the mission is going well, the commander can send any revived casualties back to the front, or consolidate the respawns at basecamp and call the forces back from the mission. IMO, this would be a bit more immersive and with each commander with a set of orders of objectives to be achieved, along with extra missions, all being pre sealed and opened at the proper times. Any points would be based on the time the objective is held and extra points for bonus objectives.
I have researched the "grenade" issue, and have found that smoke grenades would be legal to use in New York State. My only other concern is the use of the explosive pea grenades, and whether or not they are legal to obtain and use in New York State. Can anyone can clarify the legality of these?
And lastly, would the use of "air support" be a too unfair advantage for one side? (Air support? What does he mean by that?) A friend of mine owns and operates a P-51D Mustang from his own private airstrip very near by my location. I would like to have him circle the field of play for a set time, and have the Allied side call in "strafing runs" on the axis side. A smoke grenade would mark the location of the strike and anyone within a radius of say 30ft. of the smoke when the strafing run is made, would be considered "dead". The aircraft loiter time would be restricted due to cost of operation, so the axis side wouldn't be continuously pummeled by aircraft fire for the duration of the game. Does anyone think this is a viable option? I never heard of this being done yet, but I think it would be cool to do.
Have at it Gentlemen!
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 1, 2012 16:38:12 GMT -5
Good lord! I suspect both sides including the Germans would relish the opportunity to "experience" a straffing run by a WW2 aircraft. The mere sound of a merlin RR engine is music to any and all of our ears and would be awesome. With our type of airsoft "winning" or loosing should of very limited importance as it really should be about the immersive experience. If we as a hobby get too caught up with keeping score or who won vs was it realistic? did we have fun? Did we find ourselves caught up in the moment? These feeling are just as rich sometimes for me when I "die" as a result of a balls out charge on a bunker as when I get the drop on an unsuspecting foe and drop them.
This of course is just my opinion but the things at events that most often turn players off is an over powering sense of competitiveness among the adversaries that result in percieved cheating or deliberately breaking the mood in order to facilitate an advantage.
Missions should really be designed to insure both sides have authentic tasks and should be designed to provide opportunities for exciting and realistic engagements but not neccessarily create an opportunity for clear victors or losers. Free flowing events are great in theory but seldom if ever unfold as you'd like them to and more often than not disappoint both teams.
The victory (IN MY OPINION) is for participants at a WW2 airsoft event to find themselves in a time machine and able to enjoy the experience. Create "moments" not ego gratifiers. Its your event and you no doubt know your audience better than I do but these are my thoughts. As for the P51...Can I come? Even as a Kraut I'd love to experience the authenticity of dodging the Jabos! " EEEF EET IS SILVER IT IS THE AMIS, EEF EET IS GREEN IT IS ZEEE BRITISH, EEF EAT IS INWISIBAL EET IS ZE LUFFWAFFE!"
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Post by brownien on Nov 5, 2012 22:34:04 GMT -5
Well I had a chat with the fellow down the road who owns a paintball shop/field. He used to offer airsoft gear/guns, but it has kinda petered out in the area. I mentioned to him my intentions for the game (after showing off my homemade BAR! ;D), and he said he would be more than happy to help me host a game on his field! I have dabbled in paintball before, playing in my cheaper lookalike WW2 gear, and I must say his field is quite nice! It has three forts, and many smaller bunkers, all nicely spaced out. I got to see a good chunk of it while playing paintball, but he insists it is much larger! I feel this would be a better option as there is already cover available, and its all far from public viewing! He also will make up waivers specifically for the event, as he has his field insured for play. he also is willing to source some smoke grenades for the game, as well as advertise the event with his current regulars, and point anyone interested to this website to possibly get together some partisan fighter gear. He would really like to get his shop back into airsoft, and he thinks this may be a good way to do it. So if my event goes well in the spring, I may have to make it a Bi-annual event! Still have to find a historic time frame, and set a date in the near future, but now I have a stable game location! Hopefully this will help boost the numbers in the North East sector a bit, and possibly create a decent size US Infantry squad. As soon as I hear of the date for the Day Of Days event this coming Spring/Summer, I will begin searching for a set date! OH! and BTW if you were wondering what P51 Mustang it was this is it! P-51D-10 "Never Miss" 361st FG (not sure of the fighter squadron as the call sign [A7] is not that of the 374th, 375th, or 376th that was in operation durring WW2) zammariangod.deviantart.com/art/P-51-quot-Never-Miss-quot-Taxi-171300765Lastly, Do the games here in the North Eastern region tend to follow the WW2 timeline? ie Do the themes for the games tend to go in order or is that not really a big deal?
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HornetWSO
Private 1st Class
"We may not have a history, but we have a rendezvous with destiny!"
Posts: 551
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Post by HornetWSO on Nov 7, 2012 22:51:17 GMT -5
Lastly, Do the games here in the North Eastern region tend to follow the WW2 timeline? ie Do the themes for the games tend to go in order or is that not really a big deal? Honestly I would look at the terrain, and then tailor an historic battle that would fit the AO.
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Post by brownien on Nov 8, 2012 12:31:27 GMT -5
I was thinking of doing a game based on Operation Shingle, before the Day Of Days event, or maybe an Operation Dragoon event after the Day Of Days event. The North East isn't exactly Anzio though, a bit more like Southern France I'd imagine.
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Post by warbirdguy1 on Nov 8, 2012 12:47:38 GMT -5
Great advice, I myself have a WWII airsoft group here in Florida. From my experience 2nd Bat put it best, do not put everything you have into it, your personal life WILL be effected, I can say that from personal experience...
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