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Post by herrkassenmacher on Dec 18, 2005 15:32:47 GMT -5
Alright so I have a friend from when I lived in MA, I used to play airsoft with him. He's a really good guy. I think he's thinking of moving down here and he and I are planning on saving up to start a business out of this. I'm going to mechanic's school at the community college, he already took drafting and designing classes and is pretty good with math. He's taking metalworking classes next year in school. We need a business major now or somebody who wants to help out just in building and part locating. We want to lease one of those cheap warehouses (the vinyl sided ones people usually lease to start a small business) and we'll have it as an airsoft shop and garage. If this actually goes through... It will be awesome. We'll also have to hold jobs on the side as well of course, but it would be an awesome home business. I think we're moving it to another city though. I'm not sure. It would be awesome.
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savoy6
Private 1st Class
Posts: 428
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Post by savoy6 on Dec 18, 2005 20:35:26 GMT -5
hey gordak, wasn't there a guy down in fla. making the 6 and 8 wheeled armored cars from the ground up? i think i have his site floating around my old harddrive somewhere.i think the 222 conversion is a much better idea than had to help some marines at camp pendelton remount slipped tracks on a M60A3..whewwww,that was work.i think tracks are a great effect but more trouble than they are worth.any ideas on where one would get the plans for a 222?i've been trying to get the plans for the white M3A1 scout car from the national archives..but they take forever...lol..
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Post by 2nd Bat on Dec 19, 2005 0:49:09 GMT -5
We have a 1942 White scout car in our Military vehicle club. He's brought it to some airsoft games. He has both a 50 Cal and 30 Cal water cooled propane blank firing MG mounted. Very impressive. He'll be at our spring and summer games.
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Post by mikkel on Dec 19, 2005 10:47:16 GMT -5
With some skill you can convert the british 50's 4 whelled scout cars (Saladin?) to look just about exactly like an Sdkfz222.
I think those cars go for less than 10000£ in the UK
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Post by herrkassenmacher on Dec 19, 2005 11:22:04 GMT -5
what about using a VW bug chassis and making a cheap frame? You could deffinately use the bug chassis to make a Kublewagen. old VW parts are easy to obtain too. It will require a little bit of automotive skill but I see no reason why it wouldn't be far easier than a tank to make these scout cars out of VWs.
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Post by 2nd Bat on Dec 21, 2005 0:21:24 GMT -5
Gordack,
That 222 looks terrific. How was it from a scale perpective? 3/4? 1/2, Full sized? I was down on the whole notion of a VW chassis mod until I saw that. There is a kit car company that does a Kublewagon which looks pretty darn good and obviously is one of the more obvious conversions for a beatle. (I'm not talking about the cumbersome and disproportionate "Thing" either though I've seen them used in hokey movies as Kublewagons)
I don't have the issue with 1/1 scale that some people do as airsoft ranges are dramatically reduced and frankly armored vehicles are well.....HUGE. Many of the areas we operate in could accomodate 1/2 scale quite nicely but couldn't accomodate full scale. I went to the Aberdeen proving grounds and stood by a Panther and Tiger tank and absolutely couldn't fathom it. The deck on the Panther was taller then me (by quite a bit!)
Even if it was uber light weight, hauling it to an event would be virtually impossible.
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Post by herrkassenmacher on Dec 21, 2005 1:51:22 GMT -5
yeah i was considering Things as kubelwagens, except they're a little more on the rare side than beatles and thus more pricey... so i decided a good vehicle would be a VW bug painted panzer grey with propper insignias and looser suspension fro off road driving... They used bugs as well and often mounted bugs on top of half tracks to disguise them from the air as civilian cars. Clever... and a bit on the rediculous side.
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Post by Gordak on Dec 21, 2005 17:29:22 GMT -5
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Post by 2nd bat on Dec 21, 2005 19:02:36 GMT -5
It looks awesome as do the kublewagons and winter German uniforms. Someday WW2 airsoft will be on that scale. Then you won't see the guys casually firing from such calier exposed positions which always infuriated me when I'd see it in training and blank reenactments. Incidently was that the Bulge event in Indiantown Gap? My dad was stationed there when I was a kid.
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Post by Gordak on Dec 21, 2005 19:19:14 GMT -5
yes it is FIG, and yes it would be 1000 times better as an airsoft event. -Gordak
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Post by 2nd bat on Dec 21, 2005 23:42:16 GMT -5
Can you imagine that level of participation with the turnout and great impressions in an airsoft event? I sure hope I live to see it! I can assure that wherever anything close to that magnitude were held my son and I would be there. What are the odds of having a display/ demo booth and this event next year?
We could let the participants handle and fire representative examples of existing WW2 airsoft weapons at target so they could imagine participating in our version of their activity?
I would be willing to help fund it. I know they have vendor booths. What is their typical turnout?
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Post by mikkel on Dec 22, 2005 1:36:00 GMT -5
Yes, the realism would certainly improve, when everyone is wearing plastic goggles, their guns made of plastic, and instead of the real sound all we got is a *puf*
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Post by phantom12321 on Dec 22, 2005 1:47:10 GMT -5
please not that arguement again. lets end it right now. Airsoft has some cool strategypoints, a lower starting cost, a higher safety level, and a growing following. Blanks have the noise, ability to present to the public and a very large following. So please please don't argue about who is better and lets get back to how to build the 222. P.S. how come everyone jumped all over this project but no one was interested in building a higgen's boat?
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Post by Gordak on Dec 22, 2005 10:06:39 GMT -5
Mikkel, hows this, one bulge we found snowballs to be far more effective than shooting blanks... very sad. If you tried snowbals in airsoft, you get shot to shreds.
As far as doing an education table at the bulge, they Banned non firing guns from the event, so there is really nothing we can do. Apparantly the ATF (hunting for unregestered machine guns) made too many arrests that later turned out to be toys. However I am doing an airsoft display at some reenactments this summer. -Gordak
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Post by phantom12321 on Dec 22, 2005 12:43:44 GMT -5
we could always set up a table just to give information about us even if we can't bring the actual guns. I know that it would lessen the effect but it's an idea.
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Post by Guinness on Dec 22, 2005 13:06:00 GMT -5
There still seems to be a bit of an attitude of "We use 'real guns' not toy guns" from the reenactor crowd-
Plus many people in the reenactor community have a vested interest in continuing that because they are also vendors to the community i.e. blank munitions manufacturers, etc. so some folks don't necessarilly want to see the advancement of Airsoft with it's offshore manufacture base because it directly effects their business.
They would likely hide behind a "We have more stringent requirements than Airsoft" e.g., "Because we use real blank-adapted weapons, the community is of legal age where in Airsoft anybody 13 and up is carrying one of those toy guns" and thereby attempt to argue that their sport is 'safer'- Obviously it would only take one live round slipping by a ammo inspector and injuring a participant to make clear how silly that comparison is. The reality is, like anything that is popular, it ends up being more about whose livelyhood would be negatively impacted by the increased popularity of Airsoft with its Asain manufacture base.
Another example as mentioned by Gordak, if the ATF is actually considering these weapons as real, undocumented Class III machine guns, and making arrests based on that, it says more about their level of competance and training than anything else- another weak excuse.
It is my opinion that the real cause of resistance to Airsoft integration in the Reenactor community is based more on fears of financial loss than anything else.
-G
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Post by 2nd bat on Dec 22, 2005 14:28:52 GMT -5
Guiness no doubt has a point. I'm delighted to hear that Gordak will have the opportunity to shocase airsoft before reenactor audiences but all of us have to be careful not to convey a sense that one approach is superior to the other or that one is the right way and the other wrong. They're just different with advantages and disadvantages to both.
I wish airsoft guns were louder and had a muzzle flash and ammo was restricted by size and weight. But find shooting blanks well...... shooting blanks So there are upsides and downsides to both. There is nothing that will close us out to the reenactor community quicker then taking an us and them approach. Another big put off we have to be aware of us if the reenactor community sees us dramatically compromising impression requirements.
I had potential access to a wonderful living history facility for a Vietnam event which has an incredible firebase, NVA tunnel network and VC villages but the proprietor went to a "NAM" airsoft event in California and found the event embarrassing and hokey and now thinks all airsoft events would be conducted like that. As result he wants nothing to do with airsoft. Very frustrating.
As for the higgins boat I thinks its a cool idea and can easily imagine it wrapped around a pickup truck chassis backing up. I think it is more limiting in the scenario uses but a couple of them simulating a beach landing would be awesome.
I've been to a paintball event where they wrapped canvas fencing in the shape of rectangular "boats" and bunched folks inside to simulate landing craft. At the signal the boats "dropped their front ramps and out everyone ran" toward the bunkers It was kinda neat.
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Post by mikkel on Dec 22, 2005 15:36:50 GMT -5
The main reason why reenactors use real weapons are that they are...real You can't strip your airsoftgun, its not built to the same specs and quality as the real one. In the camp you canøt strip your airsoftgun and clean it with your issue cleaning kit. If some member of the public was to see my weapon, i would feel really silly, handing over a plastic gun, that can't do anything a real gun can.
Reenactment is not like airsoft, its not about winning a game. Its not about playing an actiongame wearing period uniforms, it's about recreating the period as correct as possible.
Seriously, you don't use airsoftguns in movie productions. Reenactors participate in movies, with their real guns.
I have been trying to convince my reenactment fellows to participate in an ww2 airsoft event. But they simply don't find it interesting, as the focus is on the battles, and its all about winning against another team. Its just airsoft in different uniforms.
I enjoy both, but don't count on any serious reenactment society begin to use toyguns. The best there is, is to get some of them to do both.
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Post by Guinness on Dec 22, 2005 16:46:29 GMT -5
I hear you and I see your point mikkel, I guess I'm just cynical and jaded to the extent that I see money as the real motivating factor in a lot of things- I mean, I agree that a lot of the complaints I have heard from other reenactor friends and read do center around a percieved loss of authenticity by the Airsoft community- I for one take my impression very seriously, but I have also seen so called "hard-core" reenactors falling in wearing m1951 trousers, so.......it goes both ways and again in my cynical mind points to that just being a convenient excuse. As well, when I have been around reenactors that have been in the community for a long time, it seems that a large component of their 'war stories' center around two things- The "Battles", and then the "Barracks Time"- and when they speak about the battles, it always has the feel (At least to me) of a bunch of grown-up kids getting to 'play army' and pretend to actually be shooting and participating in battle- I say that because of the comments such as "I had that guy dead in my sights" or, just like when we were kids, "We wiped that MG nest out with a grenade, frontal charge, -insert your method here- but they refused to all die......cheaters" So the times that I have been around them, and I'm sure its different elsewhere, it still seemed to be as much about playing guns, than anything else. Then of course 'Barracks Time' ends up sitting around drinking beer and swapping the stories of the battles of the day- again, more "I kilt that dang German, G.I., Tommy or Russkie" Let me put it this way- I have heard more talk regarding shooting at the enemy or taking fire from the enemy or tactics to engage an enemy than I have ever heard about this troop or that troop not having the correctly colored field blouse or khaki web gear. Which really makes me scratch my head about the resistance to Airsoft because while the actual distance may be somewhat reduced, we actually get to shoot at each other! with more than 'the honor system' although clearly that is still part of our hobby as it should be So I have always thought that Airsoft would be a 'natural' progression, evolution, or at very minimum alternative to reenacting- So at least in my mind, it still comes back to some other reason for the friction and conflict, and in my experience in questions like this, there is always a financial component at or at least near the root. Sorry that this has strayed from the origination point so far Herrkassen- So I have a question- how difficult would it be to take a rolling chassis, perhaps something with a rear engine set up like a VW or maybe a fiero and then mock-up a AFV body over that and perhaps use the wheels as integral to the bogies or road wheels of the tank? obviously based on size maybe this would be more suitable for a Hetzer www.vmmv.org/tanktk/hetzer/hetzer.htmor a M5 Stuart- www.752ndtank.com/fsmmstuart.html I dunno- just trying to bring the topic back on track.....
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Post by Gordak on Dec 22, 2005 19:34:58 GMT -5
I think 222 armored cars are the best way to go, VW bus chasis ($400), OR a ferret scout car ($4000) is a great start.
I do know this however, no matter what you do, its usually 1000% more work than you think it will be at the start. -Gordak
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Post by 2nd Bat on Dec 22, 2005 20:19:09 GMT -5
One of the reasons a VW Beattle chassis has always been a popular base for any mock vehicle is because they are air cooled engines which means you don't have to worry as much about engine cooling and radiator placement (or relocation) as you do with a water cooled engine. Clearly a wheeled vehicle is much less expense to both fabricate and replicate as well as to transport to an event. As mentioned by Gordak these things are way more work and expense then most people estimate.
There are also huge liability issues and insurance issues if you're using them in a formalized event. Paintball insurance requirements for the most part render them restricted to the point of hokey and embarrassing based on what I've seen. (Huge vision slots) Mesh viewing screens, walking speeds with a ground guide. Electric kill switches etc.
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