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Post by herrkassenmacher on Dec 14, 2005 11:09:23 GMT -5
I am a dreamer, it's what I do. I've dreamt a lot about the ultimate axis airsoft team with air support (though my idea is about a thousand dollars for one stuka and has limited range and ammunition: Completely impractical, but awesome!) and even a homemade Panzer. Now I'm not talking anything on the grand scale of like a Tiger or Panther tank or even a PZIII. The tank I had in mind is the smallest in the german arsenal: The PzKpfw 38t. I have looked up things on this subject and have seen people building scale shermans and such for their kids to ride around in with potato guns mounted in the turret. I always wondered if one guy could pull that off for his kid and post plans up online, Why couldn't a group of determined people come up with a way to make a small panzer?
It would be a long and drawn out construction process and would be pricey, but it's possible, and the finished product, a functional "tank" would be amazing. It would require a limited knoledge of mechanics and a pretty good knowledge of how the real tank looks.
My idea utilizes a wooden frame, sheet metal body plates (by no means real armor so not useable in real combat, the material is also easily attainable at most hobby or art and craft stores), a 6 wheeler transmission, differential, axle, and engine as the powerplant and drivetrain, a swiveling computer chair for the gunner to sit in (nothing pricey), and a homemade main gun utilizing a airsoft M203 launcher as the breech.
it would be something requiring a group effort labor wise and financially, but then that team would have a panzer to back them up on the field. It's basically a large scale version of what i saw some guy build for his kid to drive in. You'd also need tracks and I figured the best source would be to use the 6 wheeler wheels and a primitave easy to use suspension system with the 6 wheeler treads easily baught offline. Most of these things are easily attainable, however this project would take some time, money, determination, and an open mind to build, and my design probably still needs a few modifications to survive offroad travel.
I know I dream a lot of stupid impractical stuff, but isn't airsoft itself impractical? Isn't it all for the simple purpose of turning childhood combat dreams into a reasonably safe make believe reality? Tanks are becoming more and more common on the airsoft battlefield these days, and the way I see it, it's better, cheaper, and safer to have a fake homemade and lighter vehicle traversing around than a real heavy piece of machinery capable of running over and killing your friends. I've seen vids of events using real tanks (such as the Irene III event near fort knox) and it seems really dangerous. Those guys were constantly yelling at eachother to watch their feet and watch the burnout patch (area in which the tank may skid while steering).
People make fake tanks for paintball so why not airsoft? This tank wouldn't be the exact look or size of the 38t but enemy combatants would get the idea. Anybody think this would be as cool as I do? I have pretty detailed plans in my head but I wouldn't bother drawing them out unless i had partners on this. What do you fellas think about increasing the realism of the airsoft (especially WWII) battlefield?
Questions? Comments?
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Post by schmitty on Dec 14, 2005 11:58:03 GMT -5
Very cool idea. The 38t is the czech tank correct? The main problem I see is the tracks, I agree that using wheels would work better and be much easier to deal with but somehow seeing wheels under a tank really kills the realism. Right now WWII airsoft events are few and far between and scattered around the country/world so the tank probably wouldn't see much action. But, having said that I'm all for it!!
At the Bob game last weekend there was a plane flying low overhead at times, It wasn't part of the game and we couldn't see it most of the time due to the fog but it sure added a lot of ambiance to hear it.
Schmitty
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Post by herrkassenmacher on Dec 14, 2005 16:12:39 GMT -5
oh you can put treads on it. You'd have to use the Argo ATV wheels though and buy the track kits made for the argo 6 or 8 wheelers. So it would indeed have tracks, preferably the snow tracks since they look the most oldschool "panzery" (made up adj. so sue me). But my main problem was the problem of cost and team effort with a lack of team to help go in on it with me and build it. But if you could form up a big enough team and use a little lightweight flatbed trailer like landscapers use for their mowers to transport it around. The Pz 38t is indeed a Czech made tank. It was the workhorse of the german army in the early years before the Pz 3's and 4's. I just figured it would be the easiest and most realistic to construct on a slightly smaller scale.
That plane thing sounds awesome. I wish people did that with jets at my previous games. My idea was to take the 1:6 scale stuka (almost as big as me for god's sake) and mount two P90 internals in the wings with auto tracers sticking out to simulate the cannon barrels. For the sight and "bird's eye view" since it would be hard to aim at anything from a grounded perspective, use one of those small wireless servaiulence camera systems. You can get a whole set for about 200 bucks. It would severely limit the range of the aircraft's accurate shots away from the pilot, but it would c5reate some sort of strafing weapon. The plane itself though with all this rigged would cost over a grand not including fuel and maintanance and repairs (assuming people with high powered airsoft weapons shoot back or the other team rigs up an AA system of some kind). Really I put far too much thought into this stuff. But if I ever had a team I think it would be an awesome idea to have such things. I wish more WWII enthusiasts in airsoft lived around houston texas or within reasonable driving distance. le sigh.
I really want to put a tank together with some friends at least and airsoft teams can rent us out, but my primary goal is to have an airsoft panzertruppe, if only more enthusiasts lived around here.
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Post by aircarb on Dec 14, 2005 16:31:30 GMT -5
just a qiuck question...its a really good idea, but what about something without treads, say an M.P. enforcer
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silencer
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Post by silencer on Dec 14, 2005 17:08:26 GMT -5
is the tank your talking about one with a real cannon? cause there are lots of possibilites and for airsoft, like wwII airsoft, i dont belive tanks are practical because you cant have actual cannons and explosives. I would say something like the german halftrack, so you could carry buddies and have an mg on top, or something like the german armoured car, and if you really like treds the semi tank that i cant remember the name of that has 2 mahine guns in the turret. Thats my idea, if you lived by me id totally help you out but i live in california... problem there. Is there a way I can help with plans and stuff?
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Post by spitfire740 on Dec 14, 2005 18:03:45 GMT -5
you could always load a airsoft grenade luancher in the barrel and shoot off some 40 BB's with one blast, but range would be limited...Cool idea, I'm for it.
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Post by Gordak on Dec 15, 2005 0:10:49 GMT -5
Awhile back, I went to a huge hobby industry convention, and there was a guy who made Gigantic 1/4th scale Panther tanks, out of plywood with lawn mower engines. I looked at how he cast the tracks and made a working suspension... no reason he couldnt have done 1/1 scale...
I wish I could get intouch with him somehow!!! -Gordak
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Post by herrkassenmacher on Dec 15, 2005 0:45:58 GMT -5
yeah, it's deffinately possible. The gun is a M203 shell with either solid rubber slugs for anti-armor shells (the loud thud of it hitting the sheet metal would tell the crew to stop because their tank is knocked out.). The PzKpfw II is the one wiht two machine guns. I thought about that one too, but MG34s are expensive and I want something at least capable of delivering more of a punch.
I deffinately want a fully tracked vehicle since something about squeaking and rumbling treads paired with a turret mounted heavy gun just inspires fear into your enemies. Special rounds would have to be designated to kill it. A M203 rubber slug hitting the shell would make a loud sound inside which would signal the crew their tank is no mas and to grab their MP40s and hit the hatches. Special mines i learned how to make for 20 bucks a piece send a huge ploom of white smoke up instantaniously and give off a loud report, another good anti tank weapon.
The tank itself would be armed with two kinds of shells. The rubber slug would be an anti-armor shell assuming another team you're fighting makes another tank such as a stuart. The shells that fire off over 60 bbs at once will be high explosive shells, the bbs hitting the ground or trees and ricocheting in different directions simulating shrapnel. This is ideal for anti infantry, other than the two boys model guns mounted as a coaxile and hull MG, remember... keep it low cost. This would force enemy infantry to keep moving to avoid being zeroed by the main gun and obliterated in large numbers, yet keep cover to avoid the MGs... keeping anti tank tactics realistic.
I really want to get one going and a 38t is a tiny tank so it's an easier project than an airsoft panther.. though it would be awesome to have one.
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Post by spitfire740 on Dec 15, 2005 15:28:38 GMT -5
I know of a company that makes 1/6 scale tiger tanks, I'm sure we could ask them to make one a little bigger, and mod it to fit people inside. But the things are expensive, it would probably better to make one ourselves.
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Post by herrkassenmacher on Dec 15, 2005 23:37:30 GMT -5
yeah I've seen those tigers they're awesome! The made some sci fi tank that was big enough to fit a kid into it was huge. They needed a big old truck to transport it arouund. Another guy made a Jagdpanther from scratch that fired 12 Ga. shells from the main gun. I'm sure with the effort, tools, and manpower we could make one... We'd just have to figure out how to unite enough WWII Axis players long enough to do this project.
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Post by herrkassenmacher on Dec 15, 2005 23:38:48 GMT -5
and yeah.. It would give a greater sense of "I made this" pride if we made it. I mean I think I'd be taking care of something I made better. I'd also know more about how it works and how to fix it.
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Post by mauser98k on Dec 15, 2005 23:48:07 GMT -5
I think a 1/2 scale tank would be cool also.
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silencer
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Post by silencer on Dec 16, 2005 0:32:09 GMT -5
... We'd just have to figure out how to unite enough WWII Axis players long enough to do this project. I just have to point out that I am an allied player (well i will be axis in a year or so) but i'd be happy to help you guys. Once you guys get all the plans and details about the tank you decide upon, someone should host an event where we design and build it. That would be pretty fun.
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savoy6
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Post by savoy6 on Dec 16, 2005 8:12:16 GMT -5
speaking of using paintball tank ideas....this guy is building a 1/2 scale german jaegerpanther with working tracks..... room for three with an air-cannon.... here what i should look like when its done.. just some inspiration...
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Post by herrkassenmacher on Dec 16, 2005 11:00:25 GMT -5
oh my god that is awesome!!!! That guy is making a real good one too, the one I was imagining was kind of ghetto. I have good ideas for the tank, but I don't have the tools or money to do it.. isn't that always the problem though? But that guy is doing an awesome job.
Yeah I considered 1/2 scale tanks, but the 38t is a tiny tank. I've seen pics of people standing next to it and being taller. It's like the mazda miata of tanks. But if we expanded on this project and actually made multiple tanks, I see no reason why we couldn't make half scale models of say.. Tigers and panthers... maybe a Maus as a secret weapon? haha. That would be cool. And just rent them out for events. or just have an armored division that people could invite to their events?
Oh yeah silencer, I didn't mean to make this a 1 sided event. Haha sorry about that man. Everybody who wants to is welcome to help out if we could actually do something like this. I think even the allied teams would get a kick out of having to fight a panzer. Shooting at infantry gets boring, and in real life the allied troops were always getting scared out of their pants by the infamous panzers. I think it would make the game more fun for both sides. I'd even like to see some allied tanks out there. Basically I'd just like to see WWII airsoft jump up to a whole nother scale, and I thihnk tanks are a good way to do it.
I've been looking at photos and videos of Operation Irene held at the Zussman Villiage urban training center near fort knox (probably one of the most intense airsoft games out there). The army hosts it so they had two tanks at their disposal. They had one APC that was being put to use constantly, and even an MBT (I believe it was an M48)! Army personnel had deisgnated buildings people could not go into because they would shoot LIVE RPG rounds from the window of one building into the next so it explodes over the airsofter's heads! They also had a pickup truck driving around the town popping off MG blanks over the heads of the players. Cars were on fire, Civilians were running around and covering fromt he fire fighting between "somalis" and delta and charlie. Every now and then a civilian would pull an AK out from under their tunic and start shoting down the americans, and there were a bunch surrounding the downed chopper, which was the objective, holding foam noodles to beat the allies with hahaha! To make it short... It was airsofter's heaven.
I just thought that there should be some sort of WWII event like this. After all... WWII combat was a lot more intense than modern combat because the lack of long range weapons technologies and the fact that it was two world powers fighting and not one army opressing another underpowered army. I Think we should put our heads together to make WWII airsoft simply awesome. Maybe then more people will be willing to pay the money to play and we can scale it up even more.
I really like that guy's panther. Is there a website I can see that on?
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Post by mikkel on Dec 16, 2005 11:59:31 GMT -5
I have also been wondering a lot about doing a project like this, but have always suffered from three things: 1. The lack of other people to join the project 2. The need for a workshop to build the thing 3. Technical difficulties It's not just build this, you need people very skilled with welding, a really good design, and the loads of time to complete it. I have been browsing the net for simmilar peojects, and all i found was VERY ugly paintball tanks. Basically just golf cars, picup trucks and car hulls with plywood boards everywhere. NOT pretty! If the tank is not well made, it really ruins the atmosphere of the game. On the other hand, a well made tank can make every event it participates in, special. What about doing an armoured car? The Sdkfz 222 got a 2cm gun, and just 4 wheels: wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/sdkfz_222.htmIt would solve a lot of the technical difficulties, be easy to transport and the gun would be realistic. Mabye there could be made special rules for a gun like this, and alow it to have a 480fps FA AEG installed. (A big game i attended this summer in sweden, allowed 480fps FA AEGS in .50 cal MGs, and it worked really well). As an alternative, do the reenactors and get real tanks
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Post by herrkassenmacher on Dec 16, 2005 12:16:37 GMT -5
yeah haha i met a reenactor with a PzKpfwIII once haha. that tank is worth about 300 grand. Insanity. And yeah I'd love armored cars too. The tank design I thought out doesn't really require any welding, though to improve the frame structure i guess the frame should be metal if there will be people climbing on it and such. My problems are a lack of tools, lack of people, and a lack of money a the moment (applying for better paying jobs now). Technicals are all worked out.
I could either use a tractor's (the old farming type) engine and drivetrain or one of those Argo ATV engines and drivetrains. The tractor would probably be cheaper but slower. The ATV engine would be faster, probably more expensive, and would probably require the removal of several axles and drive shafts sine we only need 2 wheels to turn and not 6. That's not a difficult task if you have a wrench or wratchet. I feel like my ideas are pretty feasable, but i lack the manpower and tools to do it. If there could be some sort of event where we could find somebody who could weld well, other people for basic construction, I have some basic mechanic knowledge but it wouldn't hurt to have somebody with a degree in it, and just have a fun time building it.
The armored car would be awesome too. And yeah i've seen those paintball tanks you speak of. Hideous... The famed "tiger" one is ugly as hell and mounted on a pickup truck... I'm going for real tracks and a metal skin (not armored though so don't throw rocks please).
Another thing is a half track. To mound a frame made possibly of a shopping cart bucket welded to the back of a go-kart (the buggy types witht he frames). Add wheels under it and wrap the argo 6x6 treads around the wheels (including the rear wheels of the go-kart). Slap a thin metal skin on it and paint and mount an MG... you then have a 2 man miniature Demag halftrack.
There's a lot of solutions, but I think this tank thing is possible. It just needs some planning to turn it into a sort of event... maybe have several spaced out events where people meet up and build it?
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Post by schmitty on Dec 16, 2005 12:29:18 GMT -5
These are some great ideas. I love the 1/2 scale Jagd Panther but would prefer a full scale smaller tank (like the 38t) over a 1/2 scale anything. He must have picked the Jagd panther as its shape is easier to model than most tanks and the lack of a traversing turret simplifies things a bit. I also like the armoured car idea, my modelling experience has shown me that making tracks that work reliably and don't come off in a turn is very difficult.
I have the tools, skills and space to commit to this project. I even have a ZB-37 (the hull mounted Czech machine gun used in the 38t) But, I live near Seattle WA.
Schmitty
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Post by herrkassenmacher on Dec 16, 2005 12:48:05 GMT -5
wow schmitty haha! and to think i was just going to mount a MP5 mini in the hull to cheapen things hahaha! Damn! Yeah I was thinking of something like a jagdpanther or even something simple like a wespe.... but i want something reasonably big and realistic.
Yeah tracks are always a problem. That's why I tend to use other already proven designs and incorporate them together... like the ATV wheels and the snow track kit made for them. and using an already made ATV engine and drivetrain since I know relatively little about tracked vehicle drivetrains. that's some complicvated stuff. So I'd rather take one already made and I'd be able to rig the controls better for the ATV one than a tractor one (ATV controls are simple whereas most tractors are standard transmission and a little more controls are required.
So yeah. I think an event or severel need to be planned to make this thing. All you'd need is a flatbed truck or small lawnmower trailer to transport it and use it in WWII events around the US.
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Post by predator06 on Dec 16, 2005 15:47:22 GMT -5
I Have Long Contemplated a "Similar" Idea.
Not a "functioning" tank, But simply Battle field wreckage.
This is really an "infantryman's" game. Not an Armored warfare simulation. It might be cool to Have a Working tank present, But any thing less than a 1/1 scale replica Would just look tacky. And All PZ38T tanks were withdrawn from service by 1942. and converted to other things like the "Hetzer" or the "marder"
I Have contemplated the Idea of Adding to a regularly used field, Plywood and Fiber glass Tanks, trucks, ETC.
They would be "stationary" and "non functioning" props.
Imagine Creeping along the battle field, and Seeing a 1/1 Scale replica of a German Jpz IV. Tank destroyer With Black smoke pouring out of it, a couple of road wheels scattered about, and trailing Broken track behind it. With a corpse hanging out the hatch? Tell me that wouldn't Make you feel like you were "really there"?
Several of these could be made using a Little Carpentry Skill, some Fiber glass work maybe, use Car rims for road wheels, make track links out of 2 by 4s cut up and Joined together some how to resemble the racks.
You could put a Haunted house type smoke machine inside of it to generate the smoke, And Use a mannequin for the corpse.
Such a project probably wouldn't cost more than $1000 at the very Most, And would go far to help recreate the feel of a devastated ww2 European battle field. several such wrecks could be placed around the Playing field. And they could also be integrated into Scenarios.
EXAMPLE. A German Command tank has been dis-abled, and the crew Injured. The Germans Must make it to the tank and rescue the wounded crew, and place a Charge to prevent the capture of the disabled vehicle by the allies.
For the Allies, A German Tank, with Panel numbers believed to be that of a Battalion command vehicle, Has been disabled by an Air attack. Capture the crew, search for intelligence documents, and destroy the tank to prevent recovery by the Germans. ( You could hang a German Map Case around the Mannequins neck, with maps in it.)
I Am Sure Many other Cool Scenario Ideas could be thought up to.
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silencer
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Post by silencer on Dec 16, 2005 16:32:20 GMT -5
Hmm, I honestly would prefer to see a tractor engine in the tank because it would be slower and that is so much better for safety, the last thing we need for ww2airsoft is someone getting run over. The first step to even attempting to build one of these is figuring out which tank to build.
must have been in service for whatever time period you like must be not incredibly huge like a king tiger box shaped designs are so much easier
I also like the idea of the destroyed tanks, they would be so much easier to make a lot cheaper, but not as fun. (plus we can do both its not hard to make a tank frame for the destroyed ones.)
but for that you need a playing field that someone owns to perminantly place the tanks (they probably wont be very movable) and a lot of plywood, its easy to make stuff with, even half inch would work.
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Post by spitfire740 on Dec 16, 2005 19:38:01 GMT -5
I heard a rumor that Challenge park in Aurora, IL has an Omaha Beach senario, where they open it up maybe once or twice a year, and the paintballers actually play there, the allies come in on landing crafts and the germans are up on the bunkers and had fixed gun implacements in the bunkers, maybe we could bargain with them and use it for airsoft. If it even exists...
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Post by herrkassenmacher on Dec 17, 2005 10:16:39 GMT -5
yeah dead tanks and knock out models are increasingly common. wheels & tracks magazine sells 1:1 scale fiberglass repros of spitfire fighters. You could smash it up a bit, hammer out the canopy, bend the props, put some sort of black smoke dispensing system in it, put it up in a tree and have a parachute not far from it hanging from another tree and have to capture or rescue the blimey pilot.
I know that airsoft is an infantry thing, that's why I'm not saying we should build entire divisions of airsoft tanks (though it would be cool one day to have a battle of kursk haha), just have them for support and basically objectives. Stop the kraut armor from reaching this point. Or use it to help clear out this gun emplacement and keep it in one piece till it gets there. Panzers were a huge part of German strength. Tanks were also a big problem for allied infantry. It just adds realism. And common.. Don't deny that you would love to drive those things around.
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silencer
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Post by silencer on Dec 17, 2005 18:34:46 GMT -5
so, what do you guys think about all of this? I know im all for it... if you guys choose a small tank.
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Post by 2nd Bat on Dec 17, 2005 20:05:56 GMT -5
Schmitty,
How about a couple Hetzers? Design them to go over a gator, golf cart or some such vehicle. Obviously the materials used would have to be fairly light in weight (thin sheet metal or fiberglass) but the shape would be fairly easy and the dimensions about right. If you hung the edges well beyond the base vehicle and suspended the "tracks" about 5" off the ground the wheels under neather wouldn't be all that apparent at all.
Tyler and I made "Flintstone powered" 1/2 scale Panther tanks that we used in WW2 paintball games we held every year. They used cut down McDonalds Pickle barrels as road wheels and we strung fake treads around. With the fender skirts it wasn't at all obvious that the treads didn't actually work. We did discover that you really need a power source as even with three guys inside they were way too hard to push around. We also discovered that a single tank operating alone is worthless You need at least two in harmony and three would be even better.
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Post by herrkassenmacher on Dec 17, 2005 21:53:57 GMT -5
yeah I considered just using the typical paintball tank with fake treads, but I am really shooting for a really nice replica here. It would have a two man crew: A gunner/ commander, and a driver. Not too hard to accomplish.
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Post by 2nd bat on Dec 18, 2005 1:35:40 GMT -5
I admire your ambition. Our tanks took a lot of work (about six months to build) Looked great. (players thought they were real) We took a lot of time painting and detailing them and had a lot of fun with them while they lasted. (Thin plywood and fiber board doesn't hold up to NW weather over a decade.) We had about $700.00 in each with lots of scrounged items.
I hate to burst your bubble and maybe this is well within your planned budget but If you're highly skilled and creative and insist on an actual fully treaded functional vehicle you're looking at $10,000 or more and a whole lot of aggravation and disappointment.
There is a paintball fellow building what appears to be a very elaborate Jagpanther with functional tracks who I think will get about 2 miles of use out of. He's fairly far along and I'm anxious to see it when it's done.
Good luck! Keep us posted on your progress.
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Post by Russian on Dec 18, 2005 10:38:43 GMT -5
2nd bat, how did you avoid the enormous money problem of treading the tanks? Did you just use wheels? I think we would love some detailed plans on how to make one.
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gordak to lazy to sign in
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Post by gordak to lazy to sign in on Dec 18, 2005 11:29:36 GMT -5
I was in a unit that made an excellent plywood 222 armored car on a vw bus chasis. I rode on it and fought along side it for many years, its Really cool! herei s a picture of it. -Gordak
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Post by herrkassenmacher on Dec 18, 2005 14:01:51 GMT -5
that can't be fake! DAAAAMN!
YEah i know tracked vehicles are a lot of trouble. That's why I'm using the methods that have already proven. That means sacrificing accuracy in terms of the chassis look and road wheel setup, but at least she'll run. That's why I'm using almost all Gator parts to power this thing and for the wheels and tracks I'm using Gator roadwheels and the gator snow track kit will be strung around the gator wheels.. so they're already made by professionals to fit. It won't look liek the 38t chassis but it will work better than a homemade track and wheel setup. We'll make up for the unrealism in the track and wheel setup with the body. It will take a lot of money and a whooooole lot of time but i think it will advance a step in the WWII airsoft world.
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