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Post by Obergefreiter Raimund on Jun 11, 2007 12:28:42 GMT -5
Anyone got some tactics for this? I’m talking about small platoon sized groups with no armor, no artillery support and obviously no air support.
How to cross large open fields tactfully…
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Post by 2ndranger on Jun 11, 2007 12:31:45 GMT -5
I would do a "combing" effect, spread each man about 10-20 ft apart, and just walk through the field, with MGs on the rear, hell if I had some sharpshooters, Id have them scouting the horizon as we advance. To some that may sound silly to me its playing it safe.
Franz
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Post by Obergefreiter Raimund on Jun 11, 2007 12:41:13 GMT -5
I was looking for some real German tactics. I like your idea though. However I would send out a small party first to scout and take up positions before moving the entire group. Though, your idea seems pretty effective if using real guns. But in Airsoft, I find snipers to be useless and MG's not very effective as support over long distance.
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Post by 2ndranger on Jun 11, 2007 12:46:58 GMT -5
Whoops, I wasnt sure, Btw, what field? Like tall grass, crops, just hillsides...?
Franz
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Post by Obergefreiter Raimund on Jun 11, 2007 12:51:13 GMT -5
20 acre open field just grass. Grass height; assume short no higher than 3feet. 3 acre pond in middle of field. Field surrounded by dense forest.
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Post by Obergefreiter Raimund on Jun 11, 2007 12:52:44 GMT -5
I’m only asking for real life tactics for the sake of having a little fun with the impression end. By all means though I’d love to hear all sorts of ideas! No reason not to! Knowledge is knowledge!
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Jun 11, 2007 13:33:35 GMT -5
The means by which one would cross an open field depends greatly on the weapons on hand and likelihood of enemy resistance. If enemy contact was extremely unlikely your approach would be very different then if it was highly likely.
In any event, You probably would send scouts ahead (Point element) who would do a heart shaped inspection of the area you were going to enter at and they would then traverse the wood near the tree break at both flanks assuming a flank security position at both ends. (Well to the flanks of the point your element would enter) At that point your main element would cross in either a column, line, a wedge formation or a couple consecutive wedge formations. (The straight column would be used only if enemy contact was deemed highly unlikely and the scouts had insured no enemy in the treeline.)
If contact was highly likely you would conduct, recon by fire, firing up the treeline as you moved in bounds one element firing while the other moved slightly past the supporting element and keep repeating until you're in the cover of the treeline. You would then consolidate, take a count and continue your movement through the forest.
A bounding overwatch would be done similarly with no firing, unless fired upon. One third of your element would be exposed while at least two thirds are prone or behind cover and with weapons concentrated to provide cover fire if needed.
It is amazing to me how undisciplined and counter intuitive most airsofters are during game play. If they simply recognized that a kneeling riflemen presents half the target of a standing riflemen and a prone riflemen presents 1 /10th the target you'd see folks take a knee or go prone everytime they halt for more then a second or two.
That effort alone dramatically increases survivabilty and presents a far more realistic Mil sim experience then what we typically see. Battlesim players do a great job in this respect quite consistently (its almost habit and as a result demonstrate excellent movement during games.)
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Post by Obergefreiter Raimund on Jun 11, 2007 14:00:45 GMT -5
2nd Bat
That was an awesome and detailed response. I can see easily how effective this tactic could be used in real life and Airsoft.
Weapons consisting: “If it helps you”
A handful of riflemen and assault troops. (Mp-40’s, Kar-98’s) Two or three MG-42’s
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Post by Jager.Drü on Jun 11, 2007 16:42:22 GMT -5
or you could do two man bound teams.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Jun 11, 2007 21:33:56 GMT -5
You would clearly want to bound the two MGs. One fully in position ready to cover while the other redeploys and leap frogging forward until the forest is entered. MGs toward each flank so they don't have to fire over friendly forces to sweep the treeline and able to cover outward toward the flanks to prevent the enemy from swinging around the unit.
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Post by Tough Ombre on Jun 11, 2007 22:35:05 GMT -5
Well, i would imagine... German Tactics would be somewhat similar to the US tactics of Skirmishers in this situation. -Cary
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Post by Jager.Drü on Jun 11, 2007 22:46:03 GMT -5
www.dererstezug.com/TacticalPhilosophies.htmThese tactics went something like this: the squad leader advances with his whole unit until contact is made; the MG then opens up on the enemy to achieve "fire superiority". If a good hosing down with this lollipops isn't enough to either destroy or run off the opposition, the whole squad would leapfrog forward in short rushes until the desired effect was achieved. In the event that the MG fire itself wasn't enough to finish the job, the gun would be used in a suppression mode as the riflemen went in to clean up with hand-grenades and the bayonet. Also check this out. www.dererstezug.com/SquadFormationsInOpenOrder.htm
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Post by Obergefreiter Raimund on Jun 12, 2007 6:59:28 GMT -5
In the event that the MG fire itself wasn't enough to finish the job, the gun would be used in a suppression mode as the riflemen went in to clean up with hand-grenades and the bayonet. I'll have to get a bayonet then...
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Post by Jager.Drü on Jun 12, 2007 8:54:56 GMT -5
Yep, and more handgrenades!
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mccallion
Private 1st Class
Official Road Sign Reader (retired)
Posts: 770
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Post by mccallion on Jun 12, 2007 14:34:40 GMT -5
i would place the Mg's in the treeline and send all the men out and if all hell breakes loose than have the Mg's cover your men and take the enemy's positions by surprise with speed. ww2 German tactics revolve around the machine gun so you would want your troops to revolve around the mg. -mcallion
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Post by therifleman on Jun 12, 2007 20:27:45 GMT -5
Even though I've had no expierience, If you've got an officer or someone with binoculars or a scope from a gun then I suggest putting them to use by scanning the treeline and the grass area before even setting foot out there. If the grass is roughly less than 3feet tall then send a couple men on their bellies so if somebody starts shooting, they won't get hit right away and will have time to react.
You could also send some un-lucky fellow out there and just have him sprint across the field. If somebody starts shooting you'll have an idea where the enemy is and you'll be able to deal with them accordingly. If that fellow makes it across without being shot at, then head out there with the whole platoon. Although this could result in a situation where as if the opposing platton leader was smart, he would draw your entire platoon out in the open and have his MGs open up on you and have your entire platoon wasted in minutes. To prevent that send the platoon out a little at a time, and make sure they are spread out so the mgs won't be able to waste the entire squad in one machinegun spray.
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Post by Jager.Drü on Jun 12, 2007 23:15:42 GMT -5
Those are American ways, we are looking for German tactics.
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Post by Obergefreiter Raimund on Jun 13, 2007 6:52:28 GMT -5
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Post by Jager.Drü on Jun 13, 2007 9:04:34 GMT -5
Very cool, I love that site it makes me want to do a Heer impression now.
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maxatax
Private
What are we supposed to use harsh language?!
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Post by maxatax on Oct 20, 2009 19:59:24 GMT -5
Sorry to necropost. But now that the axis side has the AGM stg44 and the mp40s and Dboys KAR98k do you think that the overall german tactics will change, plus the growning rarity of a mg42 will eliminate "old" airsoft tactics?
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Post by huxy on Aug 1, 2010 13:52:21 GMT -5
One historical tactic I know for a regular German 10-man squad was for the squad to be divided in three teams. One zugtrupp (Command team), one Stoßtrupp (Assault team) and one MG-trupp (MG team). Upon coming t a field, they would go into a formation known as "Schützenkette". This was a formation where you would create one long line instead of a colum, used for marching.
The schützenkette would be that the Zugtrupp was to the left, MG-trupp in the middle and Stoßtrupp to the right. Each man would keep a spread depending on situation, but a minimum of 10 feet. So if one period was a squadmember, it would look like this:
. . . . . . . . . .
Of course advancing to the top of the page, if you get what I mean.
What also happened with this formation was that the MG-trupp was left behind while the zugtrupp and the stoßtrupp would advance, but leaving a gap between them for the MG-trupp. The advancing teams would stop and get down after a distance (depending on situation) and the MG-trupp would catch up, place themselves in the gap in the middle, and the two other teams would again advance.
The last is what works best for big, open areas!
Hope it helps, -Lasse
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oberst42
Private
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Posts: 387
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Post by oberst42 on Aug 2, 2010 2:09:44 GMT -5
alright, when running keep some space between eachother, when running crouch, also zig-zag when you run, only run about 20 feet then drop, roll to the side, army crawl a good 15 feet, repeat
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Post by customairsoftweap on Jul 29, 2011 19:09:31 GMT -5
According to Wehrmacht training manuals(1944-45), when crossing open ground or areas in combat should be done as follows: 1) Gruppenführer observes the open area. 2) Deploy smoke grenades if available to conceal movement. 3) Form a fire-line. Here is the proper construction of a fire line. From left to right. Rifleman, Machine-Gunner, Rifleman, Gruppenführer, Rifleman, Rifleman, Submachine Gunner, Rifleman, Rifleman.
4) Move as quickly as possible thru the open area tacking advantage of any natural cover. Be on high alert.
I hope that helps. If you have any more questions about German tactics, just PM me.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Jul 10, 2012 0:13:11 GMT -5
Something critical to consider when transitioning from ACTUAL tactics to airsoft is that with the dramatically abbreviatec ranges of airsoft weapons normal squad sized units of theoretically 10 or more soldiers no longer works. with even reasonable tactical integrals between soldiers there is no way troops on the flank of a skirmish line can provide cover for their squad mates on the other end of the line. Hence squad numbers for airsoft have to significantly abbreviated. In my opinion an Infantry Squad for airsoft shouod be at most six guys and five probably makes more sense. A squad leader and two, two man sections. With that said, movement by bounds and fire and manuever still is the primary tactic employed. Airsoft players often fail to recognize that cover fire is typically not aimed fire and plunging long range fire enmass is highly effective at getting defenders to take cover and impedes their ability to place. Effective fire on your manuever element. the key is to make your bounds fairly short as it takes very little movement for the rushing element to out distance their covering support element. As in real combat terrain selection for your movement is critical. Use of available cover and concealment is vital. If the choices arent there smoke is about all airsofters have available to them.
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Post by drizzt04 on Sept 6, 2012 11:34:20 GMT -5
2nd, shoot and scoot is not a tactic normally used by the German army. Custom, Your post is in regards to movement under fire. Derestzug has the proper tactics for the time. Germans marched in a single file 90% of the time. When coming into an open area, whether a field, break in the trees, choke point, or ambush area, the troops would merely spread out a little further. If the squad came under fire, they would flank out to form a line, usually with the MG in the middle, and would then fire and advance as a squad. It helps to understand the German mindset. In the American army, a machine gun is a support weapon for the riflemen. In the German army, it is the opposite. the riflemen are support for the MG. The Germans placed all their faith in the MG, with its superior range and accuracy. A typical german squad was 8-12 men. 1 SL (typical MP40) 1 ASL (k98 or MP40) 1 MG team (3 men, gunner, assist. gunner, ammo carrier/flank watch) Riflemen (k98) Every rifleman carried ammo for the MG. At 1600 rounds a minute, a 42 is a hungry girl. An ideal firefight for the Germans was as follows: The squad moves out in column formation with the SL in the front. He is followed by the MG and crew, and the riflemen are behind with the ASL bringing up the rear. A target is seen by the SL, and the column is given a halt command, by word or signal. The SL instructs the squad to form a firing line. The squad moves out into a line formation, picks out their firing position, but stays back out of it so that the enemy cannot see them. Meanwhile, the SL and MG move up to the line to observe the target. The AMG readys the 34/42. Once the target is identified and the MG knows what he is aiming for the SL and MG move back. The SL will inform the squad of the situation, telling them the target, range, any identifying terrain, and how many rounds, to fire. Quite commonly, the fire orders would be for just the MG to open up. ex. orders: 1. Squad 2. Posts 3. Machine gun left oblique, range 450 4. Fire at will!.........5. Cease fire! 1. Squad 2. Posts 3. 500 yds to the front, 2 fingers left of red barn. Machine gun 250 rds. 4. Fire! Gun will fire 250 rds and cease fire of their own initiative. 1. Entire squad 2. Posts 3. Enemy attacking from the front, range 300 yds 4. Fire at will! If in an ambush situation, or enemy attacks without warning, the commands can be simplified to 1. Posts 2. Fire at will! The Germans were very fire disciplined. Much more so than most other militaries. SL led from the front as opposed to the rear, and were very aggressive. Hope this helps. A great reference site is www.cgsc.edu/carl/wwIIspec/It is a site that has WW2 manuals. I find that "The German Squad in Combat" is particularly effective. The posts on here are all valid, and can work well in the proper situation, I am just showing you and example of actual German tactics of the time.
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