2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 20, 2006 23:33:02 GMT -5
A new Chinese reverse engineered rifle has recently been finished and has begun arriving (albeit in small numbers) in the US. It is following the pattern of Marui knock offs that are for the most part interchangeable with marui model guns.
This one branded the KART model 66 is the best knock off I've seen yet. In the past I puchased five CYMA AK model 028s which were knock off AK-47s. They could use Marui AK Mags and were virtually identical. The wiring was a bit of a compromise and the hop up wasn't as good and the barrel was metal with a weak hop up. With all the short comings they were a great value at $125.00 delivered. I bought them in large numbers for use by the OPFOR for the RECONDO school I put on. Thus far they have held up well and continue to function in spite of being loaner or rental guns at several large events.
The M-14 variant really perked my interest because of the Garand conversions I build. I get a great deal on Marui M-14s at 327 to $347.00 delivered but obviously if I could get a supply of less expensive guns that worked and looked the same I could lower my price on finished Garand AEGs which currently sell for $750.00.
The KART M-14s list at $125.00 in China and with shipping they've been coming in at around $180.00 or so. I ordered six but only was able to get in three with my initial order due to short supply. The guns are a lot nicer in quality then the CYMA 028 AKs which shows the Chinese are getting better and better with their airsoft efforts. The gun and even the packaging looks just like the Marui M-14. Everything is metal where you expect it to be metal and surprisingly the guns shoot harder stock out of the box then the Maruis. The Maruis typically come in at right around 290 FPS with .20 gram and these knock offs are averaging 312 to 317 FPS with the same BBs. They advertise 330 FPS but none of them have shot that hot so far. The hop up is greatly improved over the CYMA knock offs and the gun comes with a brass barrel which is a huge improvement over the steel inner barrel. The guns come with a hi cap which sucks since I need low caps for my conversion and the butt plate inner plate is not quite as nice as on the Maruis. The plastic stock on these copies is actually better looking and more wood like (come to think of it everything is) then the Marui M-14. and the wiring is heavier duty with a large Tamiya clip just like the marui. The gun lacks the SPRINGFIELD trades and says made in China where the Marui says made in japan. The newest M-14 comes with a 8.4 full sized 1500 mah Ni cad battery and a charger. The Marui charges extra for the battery and charger.
It works fine for the conversion with a few steps slightly different and the only cautionary note thus far is that some of the guns have come in with NO GREASE in the gear box. Obviously their existence just lowered the possible cost of an M-14 AEG conversion M-1 garand by about $150 to 175.00 more if I can get a volume discount by ordering in larger quantities.
It has long been my goal to get the cost of my M1 Garand AEG conversion in the $500.00 range so we could start to see more of them on the airsoft battle fields and now I think we can. I'll keep you posted on new discoveries and post pictures of finished Chinese base guns used in conversions.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2006 23:40:51 GMT -5
you know im on it!
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napalm
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Post by napalm on Nov 21, 2006 0:05:20 GMT -5
Ever since you mentioned these M14s in another thread I've been curious as to how they are. Great review on them! I want to get an M14 next spring/summer for an early Vietnam impression and I think I just found the rifle for the job! What retailers if any are currently selling these Marui M14 copies?
And it is GREAT to hear that the M1 Garand AEG might be coming down to the $500 range. I know a couple guys down here will be glad to hear that news.
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Cpl. Hicks
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Post by Cpl. Hicks on Nov 21, 2006 11:33:23 GMT -5
Yeah, where would we get one?
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 21, 2006 13:35:28 GMT -5
Currently there isn't a US distributor of this rifle with the first notification about it outside of China being in the Phillippines. The rifle manufacturer is in discussion with both UTG and CYMA to become the marketers of the item and they would then be available through the normal Leapers distribution networks and therefore fairly readily available.
I am trying in the meantime to get a ready supply of them from the manufacturer and have offered to buy them in quantity. I would normally hesitate to attempt it as CUSTOMs can be such a high risk proposition but the company seems willing to package them according to regs (ORANGE barrel) and there are no logo challenges (SPRINGFIELD) on the weapon as it currently exists.
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Post by CharleyNovember on Nov 21, 2006 19:16:35 GMT -5
I am currently waiting on my team sponsor to get some of these in around december so I can have one.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 21, 2006 19:48:44 GMT -5
There is already a second iteration with supposedly some refienments and improvements over the first batch shipped. The gas reservoir is now all metal (it was plastic before) and a somwwhat higher stock FPS supposedly to a legitimate 330 FPS. Hopefully the shimming and lack of gear box grease will be remedied as well.
Dan you'd be a great candidate for a garand kit as I know you'd do a great job on it.
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Post by Guinness on Nov 21, 2006 19:55:04 GMT -5
John, Have you tried this guy? www.gunnerairsoft.com/indexeng.htmI'm pretty sure he's here in the US. As well I believe, I could be wrong, but I think that the M14 your referring to is not a KART but a different Chicom mfg based on what I have read, but the build and cosmetic quality is supposed to be better than the KART's like you said- metal gas block, more detail on the flash hider nut and more detail on the butt plate. ....and oh yeah, they're cheaper! $105 -Edit- ok, my bad I was wrong, the Gunner guy is in the states, but he ships the product from HK. Slainte! -G
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napalm
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Post by napalm on Nov 21, 2006 20:09:57 GMT -5
Oh wow! Nice find Guinness. I might have to buy one for Christmas ;-)
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 21, 2006 22:53:11 GMT -5
That's who I'm trying to coordinate things through. He isn't the easiest to link up with and his shipping is absolutely killer so the net cost is roughly the same. His packaging appears somewhat different. I'll keep you posted. His site also shows great pricing on Thompson wood stocks and the M-14 wood stocks for the marui. Once again I imagine it's the shipping that will bring it all back into reality.
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silencer
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Post by silencer on Nov 22, 2006 21:31:07 GMT -5
O wow i knew you would love the new m14 mod 2nd bat! For some reason i knew they would do it. Lets hope its a good gun and worth the price.
imean i come back from being absent for quite some time to see this! how cool
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 23, 2006 3:01:23 GMT -5
A stateside supplier and a great guy with reasonable stateside prices and US support is Sam Burdette at: M4airsoft.com He is getting in the latest iteration in quantity and his price is $179.00. He charges actual shipping so you're under $200.00 anywhere in the US without the Customs fears.
My opinion of the guns is they are defintely a good value and apparently this latest iteration is even better then the first. We'll see as I have another group coming in.
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Post by schmitty on Nov 30, 2006 10:40:31 GMT -5
John (2nd bat) gave me a Kart M-14 to review and also to see if its gearbox could be made to fit the FG-42 (Thanks John ;D)unfortunately it doesn't fit but I did get the chance to review these Chinese knock-offs myself and overall I agree with John that they are great value for the money. They look great and feel very solid but close examination reveals that the overall fit isn't as good as a marui. There are gaps where there shouldn't be and the trigger guard unclips very easily. I can imagine that part being easily lost or coming loose often during combat. You can see that the quality of the plastic cast parts is just not as crisp as you expect from a Marui gun, The plastic parts are very shiny and the edges are not always very straight. John warned me that the gearbox needs to be shimmed and greased, but I wanted to test it first. Overall its stock performance isn't very good. It would often fire two or three BB's at a time and the hop up isn't very consistent or accurate. The gearbox is noisy and sounds like it desperately needs attention (as John said). I think it has the potential to be a decent weapon but be warned: Right out of the box it needs attention. The "Kart" version has already been replaced with a newer version. We'll have to see what has been changed? Schmitty
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 30, 2006 14:49:15 GMT -5
That is the second iteration that we are talking about but I would reserve comment on how good it is until I get a bunch of them in. I have two ordered sets of that version enroute so that should be a good indicator of quality and consistency.
My first batch was supposed to be early this week but we had a snow and ice storm which hopefully is the reason for the delay. (not Customs!) I am hopeful that they are just as Reliable as Marui but certainly won't make that statement until I've spent some time with them. I have bought and sold over 20 Marui M-14s now (in the form of the Garand conversions) so I know how reliable and consistent they are. The Marui M-14 in stock straight out of the box form is a tough package to measure up to. The first effort by Double Eagle was good but clearly not as good as a Marui. With tweaking and some TLC they come close (certainly close enough to more then justify the savings.) They worked fine in the garand conversion with the clear understanding by the buyer that this is the base gun used. The second batch I am hopeful will narrow the gap further and not require the TLC and tweaking.
Again we'll see. The low price shown in China gets eaten up pretty quickly with shipping and I'm keeping my fingers crossed on Customs which these days can be brutal.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Dec 2, 2006 15:49:58 GMT -5
Both additional shipments are pending arrival. I paid for them about 3 weeks ago. It's definitely frightening worrying about customs especially on what amounts to almost a $2,000.oo order! I'll get a report on the next iteration when they arrive and again drop one off for a second opinion from Schmitty. Hopefully we'll both be delighted. The price got lowered again I noticed but the exporter raised shipping again so the net remains almost identical. Amazing how that seems to work.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Dec 2, 2006 21:26:09 GMT -5
Hong Kong shipment number two arrived today. My second group of six M-14s to dink around with. As anticipated they are almost universally better then the first batch (Which I thought was pretty darn nice) This group as anticipated has a metal front gas reservoir and slightly nicer touches visually throughout. They eliminated the hokey rail on the front of the stock (that I cut away anyway in my conversions) and now match the Marui identically on the butt plate finish below the flap. I remove the flap but the first group was so plasticky looking under the flap that it wouldn't work for my purposes. The current butt plate flap does. In place of the hokey rail system the gun now comes with a removable scope mount which is nice on an M-14 unrealistic on a garand as it covers the bolt. Maybe they can be sold to Marui M-14 owners! The guns still come stock with a hi cap magazine. I'd rather it came with a low cap but most see that as a value item. It also comes with a cheap sling (nylon and not useable for my project) and a 1200 mah full sized 8.4 battery. It includes a charger as well but it is still Chinese pronged so worthless over here as far as I know.
The biggest news is they are apprently now lubricating the mech boxes. Woo Hoo! The gun didn't sound like it was eating it's young when you fired it right out of the box. The last group of virtually every gun required stripping the gun down and reshimming and adding grease as well as adding lube to the piston which had none whatsoever. Once done the first group shot and sounded way better. This entire shipment was much tighter and shot very very well right out of the box. Not the 330 advertised with .20 gram but close at 322 or so. Considerably better by the way then the Maruis do stock.
The one dissapointment on the newest iteration is the wiring went back to the thinner guage of earlier Chinese knock offs (My Cyma type 028 AKs.) probably not a big deal at all but noticeable. They still use the bigger tamiya clips thankfully and this version still include the brass barrels. The hop up is better then my first batch of Kart M-14s as well. These are really a great value. I got them on the ground at my house for under $180.00 each. If I get the next batch as well, my confidence in Customs seizures will put me at ease for a while anyway and I'll start offering finished Garand conversions for $560.00 plus shipping. Once complete it will be very hard to tell this variation from a marui based Garand except that this one will shoot harder. Is it as good as a Marui? FRANKLY No! In my opinion nothing is. The Marui is a spectacularly assembled, super high quality, base gun that never seem to break down (unless they're upgraded or abused) This base gun will probably not be as durable long term and at some point will no doubt have to be mechanically alterred. I feel very strongly that it is every bit as reliable as the G&G M-14s. Maybe more so. This version is completely Marui compatible. So if and when the time comes to repair anything just upgrade it using Marui upgrades. Reenactment airsoft I've found is much easier on guns then normal airsoft in that less rounds tend to be fired and shorter bursts are the norm. With that in mind these guns should be just fine for a long long time.
If someone buying a garand conversion using the Double eagle as a base wants a take down inspection and regrease as part of their purchase just add $30 to the purchase price. This latest grouping doesn't appear to need it however.
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Post by vasilithesniper on Dec 3, 2006 4:40:30 GMT -5
Still, I plan on getting one since it's a M-14 it might come in handy some day while I'm at my team practice ;D I will at least make them think I got a TM from a distance.
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Post by Guinness on Dec 3, 2006 11:51:48 GMT -5
2ndBat,
Great review!
Are you getting these from GunnerAirsoft? if not can you tell us where, I would like to get one and throw in the wood stock as a backup weapon to my M16VN
-G
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Dec 4, 2006 0:05:33 GMT -5
I've gotten them from both M4airsoft (M4airsoft.com)in the US and Gunner airsoft and Toys Gunnerairsoft.com I was able to get them somewhat cheaper direct from Gunner but not significantly so ($20.00) M4airsoft sells them for 179.00 each and has been very reliable. Gunner frankly scares me because of customs. By the time they add shippings it's pretty close to M4s price (Gunner will kill you on shipping)
It's probably a lot less scary buying a single gun then a batch of six. I'll calm down a bit more if my second shipment from Gunner comes in this week. Incidently they offer a chinese made wood stock for the M-14 for $160 plus shipping and it's very nice. One out of three of the stocks required a little dremel work but not bad. The real wood adds alot to either the M-14 or the garand kit. In fact with the real wood you can leave your original stock ....stock, and then switch back and forth between an M-14 and Garand in about 30 minutes. The M-14 is very well done and great value.
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Post by maa on Dec 4, 2006 1:32:43 GMT -5
2nd bat .. I live & work in China. Bought my AGM MP008 for heck of less than Gunner's price. I can help you supply the M14 clones. Contact me.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2006 14:35:48 GMT -5
this should prove intresting. 2nd bat, if you can sell your m1 aeg's for even cheaper contact me immediantly
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Post by Capt. Zak on Dec 4, 2006 21:19:10 GMT -5
MAA? Is that...could it be...Men At Arms? Long time no see buddy! ;D
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Dec 4, 2006 23:15:04 GMT -5
If you can reliably and safely get them to me and the shipping doesn't end up netting out higher then I'm paying now I'm all over it. PM me with what a group of six would cost me shipped to the West Coast 98074 Zip Code
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Post by maa on Dec 4, 2006 23:16:35 GMT -5
Yes, Jeff ... MAA = MENATARMS on other boards. I read this board now & then. Of course I am aware of the clone M14 as I authored the original thread on new China clones on Arnie's. As you know I don't specialize in commericial sales of AS stuff but do hold group buys on my own board (Scifimilitary.com). I'd be interested in assisting 2nd bat with his conversion effort though.
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Post by maa on Dec 7, 2006 19:16:58 GMT -5
Folks ....
While it is true incountry price for clones runs about $60. A can of spray bright orange paint still costs 4 bucks. Taxi rides to & from toy marts cost $10. Then hand carrying the huge box to Hong Kong where postal rates are 80% lower than in China is a serious pain-in-the (and no way I can handle 6 pieces as my luggage) ...
I've talked it over with 2nd Bat -- while my jesture started out as good will. If people are holding off expecting to realize huge savings .. sorry to give you that impression. No matter which way you cut this at this volume and having to add local plus intl' trasnportation costs -- the net savings may be 10 dollars (if I don't charge anything for hold a can of spray paint over the flash hider).
So, never mind my posts.
I think 2nd Bat has minimize the costs best he can already, and my help would not be as meaningful as first thought.
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Post by Guinness on Dec 7, 2006 23:30:32 GMT -5
Well, it is the thought that counts, so thanks anyway man!
....I wonder what US customs would do if one of these arrived with no flash hider at all- just one of those red dart-gun looking plugs in the end of the barrel tube...?
Slainte!
-G
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Dec 8, 2006 2:16:34 GMT -5
Guiness was that a serious question? Interestingly the Maruis come in with the flash hider off and a hokey orange bird cage flash hider in place on the tip. Scared the hell out of me when I first saw them. I pursued a further reduction in my costs and they continue to kill me on shipping but I can sell the Clone M-14s for $180.00 delivered in the US for anyone who is interested. Thus far I've convereted and sold 3 of them into Garands and have several additional orders pending production or waiting on funds. Very few mods to the kit and assembly vs a marui. (just a couple annexed notes.) The gun works fine for the conversion and makes an excellent base gun. Not quite as good as a marui but every bit as good as a G&G
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Post by Guinness on Dec 8, 2006 3:53:47 GMT -5
Am I ever serious? -G
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Post by Capt. Zak on Dec 8, 2006 7:17:46 GMT -5
What type of magazines do these knock offs use? Are the Marui mags interchangable?
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Dec 8, 2006 14:05:17 GMT -5
Yes the Marui magazines and the G&P Marui knock offs work fine. Hi cap, mid cap and low caps all work in the knock off and vice a versa. On my first shipment the mag release had to be filed a little for the marui mag to click in. (They'd work but wouldn't stay in on their own) On later shipments the mags had to be clicked in with a little abrupt effort a few times before the tolerances were right. After 5 to 10 insertions and removals they worked fine (or maybe I just got used to it.) G&G mags of course don't work. To give you an idea just how perfectly reverse engineered these are to a Marui I've inter swapped numerous components such as scope mounts, flash adapters, stock assemblies, butt plate flaps and all fit perfectly. Hop up location and design is virtually but not completely identical.
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