mccallion
Private 1st Class
Official Road Sign Reader (retired)
Posts: 770
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Post by mccallion on Jun 30, 2008 21:55:59 GMT -5
well cause i dont think that anybody else is gonna ask i new question i will what country perfected dropping paratroopers ? mccallion
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Medic
Sergeant
I'm 12 not 25!
Posts: 1,539
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Post by Medic on Jun 30, 2008 22:04:38 GMT -5
Germany
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Post by wade on Jun 30, 2008 22:07:20 GMT -5
Italy
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Adler69
Master sergeant
Legio Patria Nostra
Posts: 2,859
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Post by Adler69 on Jun 30, 2008 22:15:56 GMT -5
It was the Soviet Union . In 1936, 1,200 men in the Red Army, parachuted during maneuvers near Kiev. The Soviets called these troops ‘locust warriors’.
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Post by binarypunisher on Jun 30, 2008 22:43:46 GMT -5
How do you define perfected?
I would argue the Americans perfected it...they werent the first, but I think they perfected it.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Jul 1, 2008 0:48:00 GMT -5
I suspect the 82nd Would question that statement following their disasters at North Africa and Scicily. Finally successful at Anzio and accidently effective at Normandy. I suppose more so than the Germans at Crete or anything the Russians did. Actually German commandos were quite successful at Eban Emael and in the Rescue of Mussolini these were certainly before any US successes and were pretty near perfect.
I'd say Germany.
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Post by binarypunisher on Jul 1, 2008 1:30:19 GMT -5
I suspect the 82nd Would question that statement following their disasters at North Africa and Scicily. Finally successful at Anzio and accidently effective at Normandy. I suppose more so than the Germans at Crete or anything the Russians did. Actually German commandos were quite successful at Eban Emael and in the Rescue of Mussolini these were certainly before any US successes and were pretty near perfect. I'd say Germany. Germans didnt jump on Eben Emael..they used gliders. Same with Mussolini, they used gliders there. The German PLFs required knee pads, and look at videos of their parachute openings - ouch! Crete was a disaster, and part of that in my opinion was their ttp's. Using cannisters to carry weapons was a neat idea, but ultimately a poor one - they jumped in with nothing but a pistol and a grenade, and the Brits and Greeks could just find a cannister and ambush the unsuspecting Fallschirms. The British improved upon the Germans, but I think the Americans really exploited paratroopers to their full potential.
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gadge
Corporal
Posts: 1,199
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Post by gadge on Jul 1, 2008 2:17:54 GMT -5
I would like to argue Bruneval / operation Biting as being the first successful true parachute operation. www.combinedops.com/Bruneval.htmThats a company sized action with properly designed parachutes that was *completely* successful. The 82nd Airborne were not formed until 6 months after the UK conducted Operation Biting. Italian and russian parachute operations were hampered by the need for the soldiers to slide down the wing of the plane. German ops flawed because of the way they were used, the poor parachute design and the dependency on drop cannisters. I'd therefore rest the case that the UK perfected the parachute operation as we know it today. ~ Summary of Action ~ Allied Forces: Air - 1 Whitley Squadron; Sea - Landing Craft & Escorts; Land - 1st Airborne Division, elements of the French Resistance. Axis Forces: Sea - 1 Destroyer, 2 E-Boats; Land - Infantry patrols & Bruneval defence force. Outcome (Positive) - Wurzburg radar components successfully removed from German radar installation + capture of an operator. Outcome (Negative) - Two men killed & six missing.
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gadge
Corporal
Posts: 1,199
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Post by gadge on Jul 1, 2008 2:49:54 GMT -5
I suspect the 82nd Would question that statement following their disasters at North Africa and Scicily. Finally successful at Anzio and accidently effective at Normandy. I suppose more so than the Germans at Crete or anything the Russians did. Actually German commandos were quite successful at Eban Emael and in the Rescue of Mussolini these were certainly before any US successes and were pretty near perfect. I'd say Germany. Germans didnt jump on Eben Emael..they used gliders. Same with Mussolini, they used gliders there. The German PLFs required knee pads, and look at videos of their parachute openings - ouch! Crete was a disaster, and part of that in my opinion was their ttp's. Using cannisters to carry weapons was a neat idea, but ultimately a poor one - they jumped in with nothing but a pistol and a grenade, and the Brits and Greeks could just find a cannister and ambush the unsuspecting Fallschirms. The British improved upon the Germans, but I think the Americans really exploited paratroopers to their full potential. The major flaw at Crete was not so much dropping with cannisters (although its not a *great* idea compared to UK leg bags) it was more the fact of dropping directly onto hot LZs which were expecting them. Armed or not on landing you're all individuals, without the space to form up as a company/battalion or whatever you're just a mass of disorganised individuals and nowhere near as combat effective as a properly formed up unit under its correct command and control. If you take the UK op at Arnhem to be the extreme opposite of this, that was a case of forming up to far away, it meant that the units fought at nearly full strength but lost the element of surprise. Similarly US drops over Normandy were significantly reduced in their effectiveness as misdrops meant staggered sticks of paratroops lacked the 'cohesion' (to use the technical term) to have much punch against anything more than individual german patrols until they could form up. Late war both the UK and US got drop distances and decent LZs for mass drops sorted (with one notable feth up) for Operation Varisty. So I still argue that Op/ Biting was the first 'perfect' parachute operation (if you allow for two casualties which at company plus level is next to nothing, its about 1.5 per cent on the scale of the raid) Now you could argue that the italians 'perfected' it by having blokes drop out of planes en masse and land alive in 1935 but I question their combat effectiveness of the time. The Germans saw them and the Russians do it, they invented specialist kit, the British more or less directly copied German kit but used steerable parachutes, better helmets and let their lads drop with small arms. Funnily enough i wrote a magazine article on this a few months back.
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click
Sergeant
Company G, 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines, 1st Marine Division
Posts: 1,764
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Post by click on Jul 1, 2008 3:31:34 GMT -5
Actually the Poles were also one of the pioneers of paratroops. After the invasion of Poland, alot of the instructors transfered/escaped to the UK and helped start the para program there.
Click
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gadge
Corporal
Posts: 1,199
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Post by gadge on Jul 1, 2008 3:44:47 GMT -5
source click? thats a pretty new one on me.
Don't doubt you just be keen to read up on it.
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mccallion
Private 1st Class
Official Road Sign Reader (retired)
Posts: 770
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Post by mccallion on Jul 1, 2008 12:08:03 GMT -5
from my sorce it said italy so marine man3 its your turn mccallion
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Post by binarypunisher on Jul 1, 2008 12:29:53 GMT -5
Did it offer any reasons to support that?
I would still highly dispute that.
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gadge
Corporal
Posts: 1,199
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Post by gadge on Jul 1, 2008 13:26:39 GMT -5
So would I they might have invented it but unless you count perfection as 'it worked' then its harldy perfecting.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Jul 1, 2008 14:40:14 GMT -5
German Gliders...Duh? ? .I knew that. Interesting debate about airborne "perfection" When it comes to Military Science it's a seldom used term. Great info. Especially Binary and Gadge.
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Post by britannia on Jul 5, 2008 9:36:11 GMT -5
well when all those Soviets jumped they were clearly chasing a stick of butter, fools . as a question, I thought I read somewhere that Yugoslavia had several Paratrooper units and they had a doctrine widely admired and used by both sides. I don't really believe the doctrine part but DID Yugoslavia have airborne capable units? Considering the size of their fieldable army I wouldn't throw it out in the forms of impossible
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Adler69
Master sergeant
Legio Patria Nostra
Posts: 2,859
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Post by Adler69 on Jul 25, 2008 1:03:37 GMT -5
OK well , let's see if we can revive this thread. We all know that during the US Civil War European nations called the Union : Uncle Sam , because of the U.S. mark on the equipment. Now my question is : What was the nickname for the Confederacy?
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Post by blitz on Jul 25, 2008 9:18:45 GMT -5
The Rebels?
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Adler69
Master sergeant
Legio Patria Nostra
Posts: 2,859
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Post by Adler69 on Jul 25, 2008 19:56:28 GMT -5
No , not that . Clue , look at a Confederate soldiers belt buckle.
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Post by blitz on Jul 25, 2008 20:50:45 GMT -5
Ahh those belt buckles are wayyyy to much for me to own.......
Wild Guesses: -Cotton Sam -Confederate Sam -Cotton South
Lol idk, i always though they were the rebs, south, johnnies, and confederates..
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azeeze
Private 1st Class
Posts: 622
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Post by azeeze on Jul 30, 2008 17:53:08 GMT -5
''insert curse word'' suckers
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Post by blitz on Aug 2, 2008 17:39:45 GMT -5
hahaha i have a feeling that wasn't it. England supported anything that had to do with the destruction of the US at the time lol. They just didn't want to be beat a third time, so they did join!
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