2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 20, 2008 15:32:44 GMT -5
Impressive. In viewing the pictures of your Soviet Armored car I always assumed it was the real deal. Great job. I agree that somewhat scaled donw versions of vehicles makes way more sense for airsoft for the reasons given. My son and I built half scale Panther tanks years ago that looked very very good but in hind sight half scale was simply too small. They looked great in pictures until people stood next to them. (At the time my son was 10 and he was perfectly to scale!)
I'd love to see perhaps a 3/4 scale Stuart or Hetzer/ Pz Mk1 as this seems to be the size that would be most logical for airsoft applications. Still manageable to transport and manueverable on most fields.
One realization we had that was born out in using these vehicles in action pursuit games and actual combat is that a single vehicle is pretty much defenseless and two is quantumly better while three is dramtically more effective then two. Very, very intimidating. The germans realized the effectiveness of massed armor and used it to great effect throughout the war as long as their inventories allowed it.
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TommyGunner
Staff Sgt.
Hackjob Mauro
1st Marine Division, 1942
Posts: 2,265
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Post by TommyGunner on Mar 25, 2008 14:46:27 GMT -5
I have always assumed the same thing 2ndbat, thats how good there armored car looks. It would seem to be a lollipops on the field as well.
I would too like to see some armor in airsoft. Cost will always be an issue though and thats what keeps alot fo stuff liek this from going past the idea phase and into the actuall production phase.
TommyGunner
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gadge
Corporal
Posts: 1,199
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Post by gadge on Mar 25, 2008 16:15:47 GMT -5
You have to look at PLI insurance too.
If something isnt road legal then its very hard to ensure it easily for public use.
Take that tank of oddbals for example.
the turret isnt secured to the chassis and its over twice its design weight...
Its therefore not a s'safe' in the eyes of an insurer and not doing its intended job.
Also what if it banked rolled and crushed someone to death? Unlikely but a possibility and unlike a commercial vehicle doesnt really have 'off road and armoured' in its design so will be inherently unstable built up.
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biged
Master sergeant
Posts: 468
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Post by biged on Mar 26, 2008 5:07:11 GMT -5
The "Parade Float" idea comes to mind. We have 2 deuces that we use for transportation and an old 4x4 65(?) dodge 2 ton truck without a bed. We bounced an idea around about turning the dodge into a Chinook copter. Removing the cab, extending the back of the vehicle by 8 feet, and making a deck about 8 feet wide on it. Then frame a Chinook body and plywood it.
Safety issues arose about exhaust, and running someone over because you would not be able to see all around you if you started to move. So we dropped the idea. The newer battery operated portable baby video monitors may offer a solution to "all clear, move out" issue.
///ed///
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 26, 2008 12:05:28 GMT -5
We have used lots of vehicles in large airsoft events including full tracked actual military vehicles. Safety is always a concern of course and clear rules and rstrcitions have to be employed. We always had a ground guide for the vehicle and minimum distances between players and any moving vehicle as well as restricted channels of movement for the armor.
It adds so much to an event and with proper briefings and a no tolerance policy for violations it seems to work. I saw a van converted to a Balckhawk helicopter quite effectively at OP Irene. Actually looked quite good.
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Post by troyluginbill on Apr 1, 2008 23:44:35 GMT -5
Going back to something Griffon said about a walking tank. I don't know what he meant by that but it gave me a simple idea. Any given tank was crewed by at least 3 guys. With light wood and heavy plasti-cardboard/gatorboard you could build a "tank" that would be carried around, have a couple of MGs mounted on it and still be the right scale-and easily transportable if it is a bolt together frame. The tank crew would simply walk it around the field. No one gets run over, you build alot of them cheap, make them lifesize and they would work as a movable light pillbox. If you did it right you could even have hi-velocity armorpiercing weapons that would be designated "antitank" that would penetrate the tank armor! It wouldn't look totally authentic but you could do some real nice pieces of the early german tanks and allied armored cars (which could even have rolling wheels to help with the load.)
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gryphon
Master sergeant
shchi e kasha, pisha nasha.
Posts: 250
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Post by gryphon on Apr 2, 2008 17:21:39 GMT -5
That's exactly what I meant by a walking tank (also known as a push-tank, Flintstone tank, or PUG.) You can also mount one on a frame strapped to two bicycles - both the Soviets and the Germans actually used training "tanks" built this way.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Apr 2, 2008 17:51:54 GMT -5
It's very hard to come up with a viable material that is strong enough and still light enough to operate in any kind of scale. Tanks were very very large. Lightweight and strong equal expensive.
If the vehicle is going to accomodate a gunner up at an appropriate height within the vehicle there is going to have to be some sort of internal scaffolding strong enough to support the weight of a gunner. The concept is very compelling but the reality unfortunately escapes my creative limitations. I'd sure love to see it pursued by someone however, especially if an approach that worked well was arrived at.
My son an I built a couple flintstone tanks that were half scale Panthers. The crew inside pushed them around. Supporting Infantry of course helped in that regard. I did everything I could to keep the weight down but they were still way too unweildly and heavy to be practical for skimimishing. The scale was too small as well.
I've often thought about buying an old Ford econoline mini van and chopping off the top at the windsheid/ window level and then reinforce the now lowered surface and weld the doors shut for further rigidity. Use that as a platform for a Sherman tank. You could extend overhangs to each side for facade tracks that would suspend perhaps four or five inches above the ground. (In grass this wouldn't show) The driver/ passenger seat would be about right proprtionately for the driver and assistant. The turret could be built about where the second and start of the third row of seats was. The rear section of the vehicle would hang over much as a Serman did. Entry would be through a trap door in the rear or hatches on top.
Ventilation for the radiator would have to be built into the transmission housing but could be disquised by spare track/ stowage and fake sandbagging which was common in the ETO. You could probably do a decent job if you did the work yourself for under $5,000.00. A M10 TD would probably be somewhat easier design wise.
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Post by troyluginbill on Apr 2, 2008 20:48:37 GMT -5
2nd bat size restriction is why I was thinking of some of the light tanks, such as the german panzer I&II anything larger really wouldn't work (for allied the matilda and crusader should be doable). Not so much tanks as armored machine gun carriers. The turret height would be about standing person height, you would not have to worry about a "cannon" on the tank as you could use some of kill buckets .30s as the base ( I certainly wouldn't mind slewing 2 linked .30s around at infantry while they run screaming around looking for cover)
I like the bicycle idea-You can get rolling bikes at salvation army for 10.00 each.
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Post by troyluginbill on Apr 2, 2008 21:44:33 GMT -5
Now before you start laughing your ass off at this, think scaled up, team run and these are field feasible. I will certainly forestall any disagreement by saying yes I would much rather have a running tank ,especially an actual period tank. But since that is simply too expensive and prohibitive these look like oddly viable alternatives to the tank lack issue. www.warpig.com/paintball/resources/books/pug/
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TommyGunner
Staff Sgt.
Hackjob Mauro
1st Marine Division, 1942
Posts: 2,265
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Post by TommyGunner on Apr 3, 2008 2:25:45 GMT -5
What? That is really funny I must say, but at the same times shows and amazing spurt of inginuity to a problem we have, and that most people are fully capable of recreating the results of in the form of this type of tank. Its a step in the right direction. The paint jobs are great though. Its projects and results like those that help expand our minds to think outside the box (or outside the tank hull as the case may be) and create even better solutions for.
TommyGunner
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Post by Capt. Zak on Apr 3, 2008 5:34:57 GMT -5
I'll pass on the "PUG". Down right silly looking if you ask me.
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Post by CharleyNovember on Apr 3, 2008 10:49:55 GMT -5
The PUG was Gryphons product along time ago. I remember thinking they looked pretty cool but most airsofters just are not having it. I'd play on a field with them as represenatives of armor but most people will not.
PUGs for game mechanics work just fine and I would love to have 4 or five on a field to represent armor. Real tanks are really really hard to come by and even half or 1/3 size replicas on a Dodge van are expensive and still don't normally look that much better. This is just my opinion and it is a minority opinion.
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Post by troyluginbill on Apr 3, 2008 12:35:33 GMT -5
Charley, pretty much my sentiments too. I would upscale the piece and make it crew served as opposed to a one or two man deal but having an actual company of armor on the field would be pretty dang cool and it would change the game dynamics considerably-even if it were just small tanks or even tankettes. The nice things about the pugs is the safety issue though. If you run a guy over you just look down at your feet and ask if he is out.
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gryphon
Master sergeant
shchi e kasha, pisha nasha.
Posts: 250
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Post by gryphon on Apr 4, 2008 19:30:00 GMT -5
A Soviet T-27 tankette is almost the perfect size and shape for a two-person push-tank. If I ever get bitten by the push-tank bug again, that's what I'll build. CharleyN flushed me out - I developed the PUG and even published a how-to builder's guide a few years back. There was a larger two-person version called the Sledgehammer as well, but the PUG was hands-down the best from a functional standpoint. They were never really intended to look like tanks, so much as to function as a tactical armor/close air support substitute in scenario paintball venues. QUite a few players liked them a lot, but paintball field owners and hidebound game organizers never really grasped the concept. After a couple of years of banging my head against idiotic restrictions followed by arbitrary last-minute bans, I just gave up and switched to historically-themed airsoft. Never have looked back....
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Post by CharleyNovember on Apr 4, 2008 20:50:55 GMT -5
I was quite the admirer of your PUGs. I even saw one that looked like an Apache helicopter once.
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