TommyGunner
Staff Sgt.
Hackjob Mauro
1st Marine Division, 1942
Posts: 2,265
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Post by TommyGunner on May 22, 2006 12:33:33 GMT -5
In looking through this sight, and all of the different impressions I have found that there is no wide spread desire to represent the USMC. I see the 101, 82nd, ss German divisions, and quite alot of soviet and Russian impressions but no USMC.
Why do you think it is that the USMC is so under represented in the airsoft community, it would seem to me with them being such an important part of the us forces during WW2 that there would be people representing them.
TommyGunner
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Post by Go4Broke on May 22, 2006 14:20:13 GMT -5
You're right TG, the whole Pacific Theater in general is not represented well in either the airsoft or reenacting community. Part of it is simple lack of knowledge and publicity. In recent years there's been an explosion in interest in the European Theater, due to movies like "Saving Private Ryan" and "Band of Brothers", and along with that many books and resources have come along focusing on the ETO. Now everyone and their mother wants to jump on the "band"wagon and be a ranger or paratrooper . Hopefully soon, though, there'll be more interest in the Pacific with the upcoming release of "Flags of our Fathers". Another problem with doing PTO is finding an enemy. Not a lot of people have Japanese impressions, for whatever reason, so with no enemy to fight you'd kinda look silly just standing around there lol. I think it's awesome though that you're representing the Corps. keep up the good work! Me and my friend might actually stow away the wools for this summer and go Marine too. PS If you haven't seen this book go look it up: www.amazon.com/gp/product/0764322648/qid=1148325227/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-7371297-6121605?s=books&v=glance&n=283155 It's one of the best refrences out there right now on USMC written by a reenactor and former USMC repro vendor. The price is kind of steep, so if you can find it at the library, more power to ya! Good luck!
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Post by mauser98k on May 22, 2006 14:36:13 GMT -5
True, there is no direct source for japanese uniforms, even then it would look weird for a white boy like me(lol) to do japanese. ATF is the only known source as far as I know, and they only have smaller sizes.
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Post by spitfire740 on May 22, 2006 16:44:32 GMT -5
I've seen entire sets (Jacket, pants, and sometimes helmet) of japanese uniforms go for $70.00 with 'buy it now,' on ebay (in the states).
But G4B is right, with no correct enemy, there would be no point. Unless you didnt care about accuracy. USMC and Army had very, very similar, almost identical camofluage, so if you really wanted to wear the camo, theres nothing that says a GI can't wear it. But freindly fire was a big issue in the ETO which is why it wasn't used much.
This brings up a good question, did the Japanese have any camo, or did they all have the same sand-brown uniforms on every island?
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Nimlas
Master sergeant
grumpy
Posts: 1,594
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Post by Nimlas on May 22, 2006 18:42:19 GMT -5
True, there is no direct source for japanese uniforms, even then it would look weird for a white boy like me(lol) to do japanese. You know you'd do it anyway Dakota! Anyhow, yes, the PTO is way under-represented. I think it's partly because, unlike Germany, the Japanese attacked our nation and I think that memory is still there. A bit of a grudge if yah know what I mean? BUt don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the Japanese. And yes, it would look abit funny. But then again, I don't remember too many people eating McDonalds and tossing back mass amounts of coke in the SS either. Reenacting will never look 100 percent like the real thing, but we can try! Jack~
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Post by mauser98k on May 22, 2006 18:46:22 GMT -5
But then again, I don't remember too many people eating McDonalds and tossing back mass amounts of coke in the SS either. Reenacting will never look 100 percent like the real thing, but we can try! Jack~ lol, you obviously havn't tried german stiglmeier!! That crap tastes like bad cat food!!! Or good spam...Not sure.
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TommyGunner
Staff Sgt.
Hackjob Mauro
1st Marine Division, 1942
Posts: 2,265
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Post by TommyGunner on May 23, 2006 10:59:08 GMT -5
Those are all good explenations as to why the PTO is so underrepresented.
The main reason I went with USMC is because unlike the ETO the hardships that had to be dealt with were almost unbarrable for the men in the PTO I mean the fighting men there were litteraly treated as second rate by the higher ups because almost all of the supplies early in the war and a bit latter were shipped to the ETO, Mediteranian and Africa. When our USMC boys were still stuck with reisings the boys in Europe had the M1A1 already and the PTO got the older out of date guns like the M1928, and the M1928A1 plus the horror stories I have heard from USMC vets about fighitng Japs and the Jungle itself on Guadal Cannal, Tarawa and invading Iwo Jima are almost to the point of fiction. It is almost unbelevable that a person could continue to sludge on with death lurking behind every bush.
I guess you could say that this is my way of paying homminage to the people that fought with what they got and won.
TommyGunner
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Post by AADan on May 23, 2006 11:05:50 GMT -5
I'm not sure which disturbs me more. The fact that you have tried cat food or the fact that apperantly you have tasted so much that you are a connisuer as to what is good cat food and bad cat food. ;D
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Post by AADan on May 23, 2006 11:08:55 GMT -5
Sorry back on topic. The only person in our group down south here that does a PTO Marine impression is the field owner.
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Post by magic8ball on May 23, 2006 11:21:31 GMT -5
I think the impression that most people whov'e never been Marines of Marines are the ones they see in the movies like "Full Metal Jacket" and "Jarhead" so they think Marines are crazy and they don't like people whov'e never been Marines dressed up as Marines of any era. I know a few real Marines who get ticked off whenever they see pics of airsofters on the web wearing the Marine dress uniform all wrong.
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TommyGunner
Staff Sgt.
Hackjob Mauro
1st Marine Division, 1942
Posts: 2,265
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Post by TommyGunner on May 23, 2006 12:11:10 GMT -5
Yeah I know what your talking about, I have a friend named Joe Levato, he was a USMC in WW2 he fought on Sapain, Tinia, and Iwo Jima. I chose not to use reference photoson USMC gear, but let him tell me what gear to get and how to wear it. I gotta say thats much better than looking in books and risk getting it wrong. Actually he is the reason I decided to represent the USMC, he even suggested the idea to me.
TommyGunner
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Post by spitfire740 on May 23, 2006 16:36:54 GMT -5
Well, there are 2 new movies coming out directed by Clint Eastwood, where one is about the Marines that raised the flag on Iwo Jima (TG's avatar ), and the other one is about the Japanese soldiers that fought on Iwo Jima, in Japanese, and both these movies come out at the same time. I think there is more interest in the ETO, becuase of all the good films like SPR, and band of brothers (technically not a movie, but w/e), where the PTO has crappy films like Windtalkers, and I wasn't a big fan of "the thin red line." Plus now there are rumors that Band of brothers is expanding the series into the pacific, so these motion pictures may spark interest.
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Post by Capt. Zak on May 24, 2006 21:17:23 GMT -5
USMC and Army had very, very similar, almost identical camofluage, so if you really wanted to wear the camo, theres nothing that says a GI can't wear it. But freindly fire was a big issue in the ETO which is why it wasn't used much. The whole friendly fire issue is a load of crap. I have spoken to a 30th ID vet a number of times and he was issued the camo after D-DAY. The reason the army stopped using it (the official reason) was due to the company that produced the camo. They used inferior dyes and the camo faded quickly. In a matter of days the camo was golden brown & white. Not very good camo if you ask me. Soldiers were instructed to dump the fadded camo and go back to wools or HBT's. He told me that he dumped them along with the guys in his squad cause they said the camo was "ugly". LOL R. Lee Ermy also answered this in detail on an episode of "Mail Call" on the History Channel. He investigated the "friendly fire" theory and there is no record with the US military during WWII of the camo being involved in friendly fire. I'm not saying it never happened...but it was not the reason the camo was scrapped. ;D On a side note...the USMC camo was reversible. I don't think the Army ETO camo was.
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Post by spitfire740 on May 24, 2006 21:37:32 GMT -5
But then why was it still issued in the pacific, were they 2 different companies making the camo with different dyes?
I know it's reversible, but I could never tell the difference of the (Spring issue?) pacific camo and the ETO camo.
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Post by mauser98k on May 24, 2006 21:39:42 GMT -5
The difference is the cut of the tunic. I believe on has more pockets than the other.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on May 25, 2006 3:29:52 GMT -5
I spoke at length with several 41st Armored Infantry vets who wore the camo uniforms from D-Day all the way through August (some into Sept.) They were attached to the 2nd Armored Division. There was no comment about fading but there were several comments about GIs taking pot shots at them which they attributed to the camo. (Friendly fire is a fact of war no matter how you're dressed.) The 2nd armored division put a lot of emphasis on camouflage maybe more so then any outfit in the ETO. (Look at the photos of their helmets and vehicles) The cut is slightly different then the Marine corp uniform and the camo sniper tunic is different still One easy give away is the 13 star metal buttons on the Army uniform and I think the gas flap. The sniper tunic was a pull over.
I personally like the HBT camo uniform a lot. I have an original set (Pants and shirt) and after 60 years I don't see much fading! I've seen other sets (some definitely well worn) and haven't noticed any bizarre color fades? You read a lot that it was recalled due to friendly fire. The 41st guys said theirs weren't recalled like a lot of units because they were Armored Infantry and were usually near their half tracks and other US vehicles which made it less of a problem. They were issued after D-Day and turned in because by late August they were frankly worn out.
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Post by Capt. Zak on May 25, 2006 7:05:51 GMT -5
But then why was it still issued in the pacific, were they 2 different companies making the camo with different dyes? I know it's reversible, but I could never tell the difference of the (Spring issue?) pacific camo and the ETO camo. The USMC camo was a different pattern, cut, buttons, and had only a chest pocket with "USMC" stencilled on it. The jungle side was shades of greens on a khaki background. The "beach" side was shades of browns on a khaki background. As far as who made the camo, they were made by differrent companies during the war. The actual camo patterns are not the same. There are slight variations. I have seen a number of original ETO camo uniforms in various stages of fading. One vet from the 30th ID told me that the sweat, sunlight, & salt water really took a toll on the camo. Plus you have to figure these uniforms were worn everyday and beaten to hell. It's amazing that they lasted even a few weeks. As always, there are/were exceptions to everything we debate here. By no means am I an expert of ETO camo, I'm just sharing what a number of vets frm the 30th ID have told me over the last few years. ;D
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Jun 7, 2006 0:21:44 GMT -5
I love the pattern and the overall look of the Army HBT camo. Together with the garnished helmet and leggings I think it's a really cool looking impression. It is interesting the debates that discussions about uniform variations create. Even vets aren't always a reliable source as they often had colloquial opinions about the whys and whats of decisions that were made. I'm by no means singling about Capn Zak with that remark as I know some of the opinions and statements I've heard from vets have been just plain wrong. The challenges is sorting through it all to try and get to the reality of it all 60 years after the facts. Impossible and infinitely debatable in some cases.
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YankeeDiv26
Staff Sgt.
Frustrated Mac Owner
BDM<33
Posts: 2,462
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Post by YankeeDiv26 on Jun 16, 2006 17:30:24 GMT -5
I think that some of it has to do with the terrain people live in. Being up in massachusetts the climate and terrain is not what the typical marine encountered. I think it would be more suitable in areas in the south or even southwest. Also there are a lot more movies ect. about other forces other than marines. ex. b.o.b.
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TommyGunner
Staff Sgt.
Hackjob Mauro
1st Marine Division, 1942
Posts: 2,265
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Post by TommyGunner on Jun 16, 2006 17:42:43 GMT -5
I agree with the terrain statement. But a small factor in my desicion to do a USMC impression was the heat of the summer. In chicago we have very hot summers and I did not want to be cought dead in a european Army uniformwith all that itchy wool and stuff. What better way than to use a unifrom/gear set up made for tropical heat.
USMC Utilities sounded fine to me, especially the fact that if I wanted I could take my jacket off and play in just the pants, web gear and a white T-shirt if it got too hot, just like the reall USMC did. Plus the equipment regulations were quite laxed (especially early in the war, basically a use what you can to fight mind set) which ment I could use Army and USMC stuff and wear it any way I want without too much fear of getting heat from other reenactors.
TommyGunner
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29ththerealpimps
Private 1st Class
3rd Armored Division 32nd Armored Regiment 83rd Recon Battalion
Posts: 706
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Post by 29ththerealpimps on Jul 6, 2006 16:31:14 GMT -5
Tommy Gunner I am starting a marine impression I am buyin the 1897 trenchgun sometime this week then I am getting a usmc camo uniform
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TommyGunner
Staff Sgt.
Hackjob Mauro
1st Marine Division, 1942
Posts: 2,265
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Post by TommyGunner on Jul 6, 2006 17:19:32 GMT -5
Great it will be nice to see another JARHEAD on the forums and on the field.
Where are you located. If your close to Chicago you and me could be the start of a USMC Division for the WW2AA, that is if your interested.
And wow the 1897 trench gun was a reall lollipops when used in combate and will prove as good of a gun in airsoft too. Tell me when you get you gun and impression I would like to see some pictures.
TommyGunner
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Post by CharleyNovember on Jul 6, 2006 19:21:49 GMT -5
Tommy gunner: what about the Armt HBT sets? those were lightweight and used in the ETO and MTO I think. I'm with you on the wool thing.
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Post by Troy Luginbill on Aug 20, 2006 23:31:04 GMT -5
Guess I will add my 2 cents on the issue. As a former reenactor (and thread counter-now reformed and enjoying life much more,) turned airsofter (much better to know you hit the guy than busting a cap at him and waiting for the ref to saunter over and tell him he's dead,) I am glad to know there are a few who recognize the importance of the Pacific War. However I am a lonely soul up here in the Pacific NW (ten minutes south of the Canadian border.) Looking through all the collectors books it is my understanding that the camoflauge issue in the ETO was one of supply. The early sets that made it to the troops were poor quality, not just in fading but in manufacture as well. The USMC had different HBT designs so used separate manufacturers and contracts for theirs. (doesn't mean they didn't get army stuff though. Those poor orphans of the US military always get hand me downs in time of peace.) The US army moved on feeling camo was not necessary in the ETO, the USMC made it work (as did many of the Army units in the pacific with the camo M43 and camo HBTs). By wars end the USMC had a rag tag, motley collection of uniforms, weapons and gear from US Army and US Navy. Oh and their trusty Ka Bar. Let me know if anyone wants to start a USMC unit or if there is anyone-ANYONE!! on the west coast. Will post kit pics soon.
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Post by Jager.Drü on Aug 21, 2006 0:58:03 GMT -5
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Post by Go4Broke on Aug 21, 2006 4:14:44 GMT -5
We might be forming a USMC "unit" (well all three of us...) in the San Francisco Bay Area/Northern California area soon. We've kind of been talking it over a little bit; dunno where we are on the idea right now, though, lol.
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Post by 5thrangerinfantry on Aug 21, 2006 7:49:47 GMT -5
Honestly, id rather have the wools in hot weather. After the first 20 minutes I am more comfortable in the wools than in HBT's. I thought that the marine and army camo patterns were the same? does any one have pics of the difference?
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silencer
Private 1st Class
Spartan by blood
Posts: 407
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Post by silencer on Aug 21, 2006 12:01:58 GMT -5
Yeaya. Well 3 of us but who knows. It seems a lot of the people out here would like to do marines. Whos our enemy? Haha. But yea it seems like we might do that.
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Post by Go4Broke on Aug 21, 2006 14:04:13 GMT -5
Honestly, id rather have the wools in hot weather. After the first 20 minutes I am more comfortable in the wools than in HBT's. Yes, HBT's don't breath, the weave is too dense, but wool does because of all those teeny holes that let air in. People say it's itchy, but honestly I haven't noticed...I <3 wools ;D . Yeaya. Well 3 of us but who knows. It seems a lot of the people out here would like to do marines. Whos our enemy? Haha. But yea it seems like we might do that. Our enemy is modern airsofters lol. We'll just go up to them before games and hand them kamikaze headbands - "Say guys could you wear these for us? Thanks" I'm also going to finish putting my Japanese impression together once I get the money, so no worries. But yeah, I think after Flags of our Fathers comes out in November(?) I think more people will be interested.
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Post by mauser98k on Aug 21, 2006 14:08:36 GMT -5
And then red sun black sand, it will get it going, then we'll have enemies to fight
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