Lev
Private 1st Class
Posts: 454
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Post by Lev on Nov 25, 2009 11:27:44 GMT -5
I’m curious to hear others’ perspectives on a couple of key questions. First, what kind of success has your ww2 airsoft organization had in recruiting members from modern airsoft? Second, how successful have you been in recruiting members from the ww2 blank fire community? Lastly, which group is the more lucrative source for recruits in the long term and how do they differ from one another?
Before digging into some of the fine points of these questions, some context is probably in order. Here in the MOA (Midwest Ostfront Airsoft) we’ve had great growth in the past two years. Many of our current authenticity standards are purposely loose to encourage growth in a hobby that is in its infancy. Even though the two sister units in the MOA are eastern front themed (German and Soviet) to date we let anybody with a ww2 impression attend events, including west front impressions. We let event organizers set the standards, but to date we’ve followed each other’s lead in this “open to all” philosophy.
As we look forward to our third year, some of the event organizers are considering locking down the standards so that our east front events will be closed to west front impressions. Since we have the luxury of authentically pursuing partisan impressions for beginners, I see no reason why we should be allowing Brits and Americans to east front events.
Modern airsoft players have been extremely difficult to recruit. There seem to be few of them who are willing to let their “lone wolf” tendencies go and they’re quite infatuated with their mole vests, radios, and tricked out guns. Those modern players who also happen to have an interest in ww2 have been great recruits, but they represent a small percentage of the larger airsoft community. “Dumbing down” authenticity standards to attract more players has been ineffective. The players that do come over from modern usually have great kits assembled in no time. Strict authenticity standards don’t seem to be a barrier to entry for those that are really interested in ww2.
On the flip side, loose authenticity standards are killing us in our ability to attract blank fire reenactors. Most of them are loath to give up the excitement of real guns, but some are ready to try airsoft after years of non-hit calling and the general farbiness that is ww2 blank fire combat (I feel that airsoft much better approximates the realities of a firefight, albeit imperfectly). Most blank fires guys sneer at the idea of mixing west and east front impressions. If we can tighten up this mess, perhaps we can be more attractive to blank fire reenactors.
By my estimation getting a bit tighter on impression restrictions will be a win-win situation for all. Am I missing something? What is the right level of authenticity for airsoft and when is it time to start tightening standards?
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Totez
Private
Smokey the Smoke Grenade Rabbit
Posts: 283
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Post by Totez on Nov 25, 2009 12:34:25 GMT -5
Coming from a previous modern airsofter's point of view I would have to say that the need for authenticity doesn't put us off (or didn't put me off at least). When I joined the unit that I am in now it was about a month prior to my first event I wanted to attend and I had absolutely no gear. I went online and purchased the majority of my gear in a matter of weeks and what I could not get was loaned to me by my comrades in arms. I think less strict authenticity standards is a lose lose for all parties involved since WWII buffs cringe at the sight, modern airsofters don't particularly care what they need to get since if they are going to get into it they might as well full out get into it, and finally it makes us all cringe since we too are all history buffs.
I think tightening our historical accuracy would be a welcome change for everyone since at some point even those with lax impressions are expected to get all the proper gear anyways and loaner gear is always available.
Please excuse me if I rambled a bit, but I hope I got my point out somewhat comprehensibly. ;D
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Sgt_Tom
Technical Sgt.
Combat!
Posts: 3,580
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Post by Sgt_Tom on Nov 25, 2009 12:38:28 GMT -5
It seems that Airsofters and Blankpoppers often have some kind of thing against one another. I guess they just don't want to give away the bang and think airsoft guns are silly toys. Although many claim farbiness, yes its true there are some pretty farb events, I don't really take it. There are a ton of Flaggrantly Wrong blank reenactors too. At least most of us airsofters are trying to improve. You just can't expect perfection from every new member, it'll scare them away and decrease your amount of players. I am waiting a bit until I tighten up some authenticity in my unit before I invite or advertise ourselves to Blank reenactors. So far most of the members I have is for the most part new to airsoft and reenacting with a few exceptions. I will say I've had bad luck with Modern airsofters! Everyone has become nonresponsive or has backed out. It seems to be a trate, or maybe I am just unlucky lol.
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Post by Gordak on Dec 14, 2009 19:22:41 GMT -5
I found, Increase authenticity, but don't expect blank guys to join up. It's actually things like taking cover, and aiming (not shooting from the hip) that turn alot of them off and yeah giving up the BANG of real guns.
Id say we see 35% guys come from modern airsoft, 10% blank fire, and 55% just come fresh into the hobby with no previous background. 504 has had about 16 people and I am the only blank fire guy, the rest had no modern or ww2 background.
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CptJericho
Private 1st Class
"We got to stop the Germans from getting the secret weapons!"
Posts: 495
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Post by CptJericho on Dec 14, 2009 19:38:18 GMT -5
I am one of those 55% that has no background, like ww2 and I like airsoft so this site is what first popped up
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Post by Fusilier on Dec 14, 2009 19:57:19 GMT -5
The authenticity, or lack thereof initially kept me away. I saw some REALLY bad pics in magazines and online that turned me off. I'm coming from many years in VERY authentic,and campaign minded units. Some say "hardcore", whatever. We jut like to be as authentic and as real as can be minus the real bullets and sickness! I have friends who may,but I think may not do AS due tot the loose authenticity. For the same reason they never got into paintball years ago when it was still military themed. Like I mentioned before, setup at the big Bulge event next month at Ft. Indiantown Gap. Get a table, bring some weapons,not to sell,but display,and I think you will pique some interest and gain some recruits.
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Post by CharleyNovember on Dec 14, 2009 20:02:27 GMT -5
We have found success with a two way approach we have two semi loose standard events a year. These draw a large crowd. We find 3-5 people at these that get fully kitted out and then in between we have invite only games with higher authenticity standards in between. We try and have one of these invite only games every other month but it doesn't always pan out. We get about 20 or so particpants at these games. Smaller turnout but this core group are really into the WW2 thing and we have better quality over quanitity. I can think of only 2-3 reenactors that have given it a whirl in the last few years. We do not actively recruit from thier ranks but do encourage them to come come out when they contact us. Most people come from modern airsofters and a few who have no clue what airsoft is they just liked WW2 and found us.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Dec 14, 2009 20:40:20 GMT -5
With the increase in authenticity standards and improved professionalism of events you can attract from both. With loaner gear or cheap rentals you can attract non period folks by encouraging them to give it a try. Holding regular quality events is the key. Guys who invest in all the gear get quickly turned off if there is no where to use them. The blank fire folks tend to pooh pooh the airsofters until they see a well done event and by inviting some unit leaders and high profile BF folks and loaning them airsoft gear we've had success turning them into advocates. Great pictures of the events is a huge marketing plus. Edit out the farbiness although if your events tend to be significantly lax you probably should be candid about it so folks aren't coming with overly high expectations.
Most blankfire events don't have authentic operations or mission phases so while the gear and unforms are outstanding from a tactical perspective most are clueless. With that said many airsofters and blankfire participants alike don't neccessarily have much interest in authentic field operations. Within the BF and airsoft crowd there are plenty of camp garrison dogs who truthfully have no interest in legitimate tactics or authentic field activity. This doesn't make them bad people it's just not their thing.
It comes down to what folks want and what they see as lacking in the activities they elect to participate in. We've actually blended blank fire with airsoft and have found that with proper rule sets and managed expectations this can work well. When you recognize that both have their advantages and limitations you begin to see cross over opportunities. Jump to Destiny is probably a 60 40 mix and Winter Strum might well be a 50 50 blend. I have concerns and reservations about how that will work but we definitely have had success bringing Blank fire folks into the fold.
The key is to participate in their events and get to know them and respect what they do so they'll have a willingness to give airsoft a shot. The availability of affordable decent quality airsoft replicas is helping enormously as blankfire guys love the fact that they can now afford a MP40, MP44 and Kar 98 for well below the out of reach prices they typically would have been looking at. Add to the formula the low cost of ammo and the fact that people actually know which of them are actually being shot at (or hit) and things start to look pretty good. What kills it for them is overly compromised standards and enemy forces walking exposed and casually 100 yards away with no reaction to your fire.
Like any recruitment it requires direct and deliberate activity on our part. Go to a modern event with several buddies in WW2 garb and the folks who see it as cool will migrate to you. Join a BF group and share what you see as the advantages and disadvantages of both. Whatever you do don't critisize the blankfire events when you're there.
You'll discover that in many many ways they really get it and there is much they do that when rolled into an airsoft event will enhance it considerably. I thought I had a ton of gear and accessories until I met a bunch of hardcore blankfire folks.
I thought about a display at Indian Town Gap years ago but at the time there really wasn't much to share with regard to reliable weapons and airsoft reenactor stuff. I think we're rapidly getting to the point where a display and demonstration might be well worthwhile but it would have to be something you were prepared to do well and within the approval of their organization.
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Post by Fusilier on Dec 14, 2009 21:33:54 GMT -5
You're right! The time is definitely NOW! With all the affordable AS weapons out there, and the wealth of repop gear,we can only go UP! Authenticity will get there, but there are still a lot of very young guys in this hobby who don't have the disposable income us older guys do. But we can be there to guide and mentor the young guys and help put them on the right track. Like I said, I think you can get a LOT of converts at the Gap. Especially the VN crowd. I know a bunch of guys who do blankfire Nam and might be into this with all the weapons that are available in AS. I'd be VERY surprised if you didn't see a lot of interest, very surprised. A videoor DVD would work as well.
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Post by Gordak on Dec 18, 2009 15:44:50 GMT -5
I have a table at the gap, Ill see if I can convince them to let me bring some display guns.
-Gordak
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Post by slick63 on Dec 19, 2009 18:59:46 GMT -5
A chap in the UK who was primarily reenactment but has been drawn into the WW2 airsoft side of things, recently tried to organise a fairly hardcore weekender. Living in the field, stagging on, patrol vehicles, rations etc. He`d secured a very good site and he got a very good response from the WW2 airsoft community. Unfortunately the response from the reenactment community was poor and the event has been called off for now. The difference seems to be that airsofters generally are involved in private battles which can last all day/weekend, whilst the reenactors in the main put on public displays and their battles only last a short time. I think he was quite disgusted at the response he got from the reenactment lads who he said would rather swan around dressed up to the nines in front of the public instead of getting down and dirty for the weekend. There does seem to be a section of people who crossover between the two 'areas' as they do want to get their kit correct, take part in public shows and enjoy the airsoft battles as well. Gadge and his PBI group in the UK are probably indicative of this. But I do believe that a large part of the 'blank firing' community has little interest in the airsoft side.
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CptJericho
Private 1st Class
"We got to stop the Germans from getting the secret weapons!"
Posts: 495
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Post by CptJericho on Dec 19, 2009 20:20:38 GMT -5
If we could convince blank fire reenactors that airsoft guns were not toys and we had high reenacting/uniform standards, we could convert them quite easily because they would probably jump on the idea of no more invincible people, and the low cost of weapons (except for the MG's and BAR (hopefully this new BAR comes out))
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Sgt_Tom
Technical Sgt.
Combat!
Posts: 3,580
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Post by Sgt_Tom on Dec 19, 2009 21:01:02 GMT -5
There was a thread about it on a WWII Reenacting forum recently brought up by a reenactor who thought it was interesting. Some said they might try it others said, they thought it was too competitive like a sport, thought airsoft guns are too toyish and expensive, didn't think there was enough of them for a decent price, and thought blank reenacting was just fine for them.
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Post by shadycadence on Dec 20, 2009 8:44:59 GMT -5
We've had a few re-enactors to our Ostfront games, and I think only one didn't dig it. One at our Oct. game told me that after doing it, he found it to be more realistic than blankfire for the actual projectiles flying around. Sure, range is diminished over the real thing, but that only comes into play in wide open spaces. In woods, trenches, around structures, it's all dead on. Like the chap slick63 was talking about, re-enactors are primarily about public display(calm down guys, I know you do private events too ). Besides, if they get their uniform all covered with crap, how are you going to tell that it's a dead-on-the-nuts-perfect-down-to-every-last-stitch-and-fiber replica? What I'm driving at here is, at least from what I gather, re-enacting is about appearance first and foremost. I hypothesize that if a guy were to show at a re-enacting event knowing perfect German commands and tactics, displaying great leadership ability and willingness to totally immerse himself in the role, if his uniform is off in any way he will still be referred to as a FARB. Airsoft by nature is about the engagement. The same hypothetical guy would be considered a HUGE asset on the airsoft field, regardless of what his kit looked like. Looks are secondary in airsoft. That's not saying we can't have high standards, but from the outside looking in, that's what people will see. And those that think airsoft guns are too toy-ish need to shoot one of EJ's Mausers. ;D
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Post by kken on Dec 20, 2009 11:10:30 GMT -5
i can only relate my namsoft event organizing experiences as i haven't run a ww2 one yet but i think it's still relevant (or hopefully you guys find it so).
namsoft does have an easier cost barrier than ww2... kits are cheaper, guns are more readily available, etc. but i think as an organizer you do two things, which are related but still different, you can have success in recruiting from modern ranks.
the first is to have organization of immersion. this doesn't necessarily mean your AO is picture perfect period-correct and the setting is right out of a reenactment. it means you've put in the effort to get there and will eventually get there but more importantly your effort also includes correct period tactics, radio usage, squad breakdowns, realistic and organized missions, etc. at our HMSG events, we also use a very in-depth and involved medic wound card system and every participant has LOVED the concept. there are no instant regens, there are no red rags, your medics are actual valuable squad resources. we also use period correct PRC radios so again, the role of the RTO is actually important. the PRCs are issued to every squad so radio comms is provided instead of guys rolling up with their own non-period motorolas. i believe LTMAC is making ww2 US radio comm pieces as well? THOSE type of efforts actually make the events more attractive than a reenacting picture perfect firebase.
the second is the tricky subtle art of expectation and example of involvement by participants. yes, we all want 100% non farb kits out of 100% of our participants. but you have to be realistic, especially if you are paying the costs of running an event. pragmatically, i will take 30 guys who are 80% than 10 guys who are 100%. BUT, you can set the expectations by complimenting guys who are 50-75% there on what they do have, and give them hints and tips on how to get 80-100%. and when your own kit is 100% and you lead by example but also have open arms, guys WILL want to eventually get to 100%, guaranteed. i will put my LRRP kit up against any living history/reenactor-only LRRP kit and i guarantee mine will come out on top. but i'm not a dick about it and i enjoy telling guys who come to my events about my pieces of kit and how i got them and how they can too.
anyone who has been to any of the war dept/battlesim events will tell you that i am not talking about anyting new and that it can and has been done for ww2... that is how i am getting into ww2 airsoft. i can tell you that this type of organizing an event also will impress blank fire reenactors... maybe not most but some. we had one come out to Silent Sunset 2 and he was absolutely blown away by how correct our briefings, mission planning, squad breakdown and tactics, and execution were. sure, he noted our kits overall still have some work but he said hands down, our actual in-field stuff beat most reenactments he had attended and he's been doing it for several years. the reason HMSG events get a lot of real world Vietnam veterans to attend our events is because they recognize how true to history our actual organization and tactics are and that we have an actual appreciation for the real deal.
that imo is what sets historical airsoft apart from the modern stuff. NO ONE in the modern world side of things aside from maybe 2-3 groups in the Pacific NW and 2 groups in socal really puts on modern events like this. i started off as the only local guy in the VA scene interested in vietnam airsoft back in 2006 and now we have a really healthy community of 40+ local guys who are all dialed into namsoft. some of them joined coz they have a keen interest in the history of the war. but most of them joined because of what the actual events offer which was something modern games were not and probably never will. it's been a long road but 2009 was an awesome year and 2010 only looks to be even bigger and better.
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Post by CharleyNovember on Dec 20, 2009 11:21:53 GMT -5
Exactly what we try to do down here in GA.
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Post by Rekkon on Dec 20, 2009 16:19:13 GMT -5
And those that think airsoft guns are too toy-ish need to shoot one of EJ's Mausers. ;D Or be shot by one of them.
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Post by shadycadence on Dec 20, 2009 17:08:19 GMT -5
And those that think airsoft guns are too toy-ish need to shoot one of EJ's Mausers. ;D Or be shot by one of them. Just being shot at, and hearing the shot go by, would be enough to open their eyes. Both ways!
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Post by bizcuits on Jan 26, 2010 18:58:35 GMT -5
We've found the best way to recruit modern airsoft players is to simply be consistent and organized.
The players in our area regularly see an organized and structured group attending games in the same uniform with the same weapons. Slowly it catches a persons attention, from that you build interest and then you have a potential candidate. The hard part is getting them to commit, with loaner gear it helps get them on board, but you still have a delay in the time it takes them to commit.
In about a year we went from 3 to about a dozen.
Our big problem right now is trying to recruit Germans...
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Post by Gordak on Feb 2, 2010 13:51:08 GMT -5
Well, I met some airsofters at the big gap, but I was almost thrown out of the place for displaying my airsoft guns. The very breif time they were out on display, I saw massive and consistant interest. Handed out alot of flyers. Soon as the guns were off the table, I didnt have one more person take a flyer the rest of the weekend.
There is interest, but in the case of the bulge fleamarket, knives, guns and toy guns were banned. -Gordak
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Post by CharleyNovember on Feb 2, 2010 14:49:09 GMT -5
That is a shame Sam. Thanks for trying though and I hope it netted us one or two new recruits.
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Ersatzjack
Corporal
"That silly Franz... he thinks we are winning."
Posts: 1,093
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Post by Ersatzjack on Feb 2, 2010 17:48:52 GMT -5
I think the problem you encountered was that they probably felt that you are trying to snatch people away from re-enacting. Just like we have some re-enactors that airsoft with us wanting our players to try blank-fire. The feeling I have is that I'm not worried if our airsofters go try the re-enacting route. I know that for the most part, they will be continuing to come to our events, and if they do decide to drop airsoft for re-enacting its a free country. But maybe the re-enactors are less certain of the loyalty of their members. So to defend against losing participants they just censor the obvious recruiting ploys. Hey, they have a point in one regard. I've never seen a re-enactor set up a table at an airsoft event to recruit for blank fire. I guess the best way to find new members is word of mouth and running quality events. Next is an Internet presence on bulletin boards, then fliers, then forced press gangs with relatives that you can push around and last is attending reenacting and modern events.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Feb 2, 2010 22:44:31 GMT -5
The Historical Military Simulation Group is trying a new ploy and it will be interesting to see how it goes. They have been working real hard in the past few months on their web site and have added lots of content that is mostly video driven. The initial idea was to provide details and course work so folks arrive at the event better prepared and it gives members a sense of belonging during the off season. The initial clips have been the more mundane foundational stuff but even they has gotten rave reviews and stirred up interest. The later stuff will increasingly include tactical videos, weapons and gear content and more interesting background material. The plan is to use video as a means to fill people in on what they do and how they do it. HMSG knows their vision of airsoft is not for everyone but after perusing the web site www.Historicalmilsim.com noone coming to an event will be able to say they didn't know what they were getting themselves in for. I even shot a video for them (Changing the game) and will no doubt do a few more as has LTMAC, Ranger Warren, Sgt Diez and KKen (or at least I'm guessing he will at some point) Eventually HMSG will no doubt branch out into WW2 and in my opinion the community will benefit greatly from it. They're one more in a half dozen or so groups doing things right in my opinion. We've had several folks from this board attend either War Department, Battlesim or HMSG events and look forward to seeing more of you all in the years to come as well as attending more of the various groups around the countries events so the community can be even tighter.
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Jackboot
Private
Kampfgruppe 'Kraft'
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Post by Jackboot on Mar 30, 2010 1:40:00 GMT -5
I just got into the WW II niche of the hobby and I love it. Last year I bought a tac vest and a m4 and went to a local event. I found the modern event so boring and unneeded I threw my gear in the nearby dumpster and left! I then found this forumasked some questions, bought some books, met another member in my location and got a group goin'. I've started with a Volkssturm and 12th SS impressions. Anyway I'll stop tellin' the personal stuff..
I think modern guys like the authenticity. Why do they spend all that money just to look like the guy next to them, with the same vest and gun? Here we look different from unit to unit! The history of it is also great! I think if we go to modern events in our WW II gear, not only will we turn heads but we'll gather support! Also at history fairs and highschool/college jr. Historian classes. I'll say hands down I'd rather fight a soldier with a Thompson than a kid with a decked out ak!!!
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