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Post by kken on Dec 25, 2009 16:00:04 GMT -5
right, i never said there would be some sanctioning body... i'm actually against that kind of thing. BUT, my suggestion was that more thru an honor-based, informal understanding toward realism, that organizers could adhere to an informal set of rules, nothing more.
personally, i was just tossing some numbers out there. but honestly, having a max of 500 for semi auto or even bolt action rifles is bordering on dangerous, and that is from my personal experience of running games for 10 years now. and the different between 400 and 500 is almost nil, thus going nowhere near down the road of "realism." the distance a 9mm round will travel is vastly different than .308 or similar assault rifle round. difference between 400 and 500 fps is like 10 feet max. i am not saying that airsoft ranges should match real steel as that's impossible but having a 10 feet difference with the upper range being quite dangerous is pretty much bordering on a not safe event.
you are actually talking about guns with "stock" fpses in those upper ranges. it's called doing some gun work to dial those "stock" FPS limits down.... it's not that hard to put in another spring to go up or down in FPS. i'll be honest, if i know there are going to be 500 fps rifles at an event, i am not attending. you can have rules and minimum engagements all you want, truth is they do not matter as you will never be able to control when applesauce happens in engagements. why risk it?
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Post by shadycadence on Dec 25, 2009 17:24:19 GMT -5
As far as the safety goes, there's more serious injury risk present from terrain than high powered rifles, so long as everyone has acceptable eye protection. 500 fps is a widely accepted upper limit, some are as high as 550. But virtually every organization that does allow this has restrictions on who is permitted to carry such a weapon. You can't hand one of those to just any player, I'll agree completely on that point. Everyone in the MOA that carries a rifle in the upper velocities is an experienced, mature player whom I trust completely to keep their head about them and hold fire inside 50 feet. For our local open sessions, the Minnesota Airsoft Association does not allow weapons over 400 fps, unless carried by an MAA member over 18 yoa. Keeping them in the right hands is the key to safety. I fear that your idea of keeping the fps low for safety would ultimately foster a lax attitude toward on-site handling/personal weapon safety in general. Like dialing in a hop up in the staging area because "it only shoots 300!" (He and I had an enlightening, in-depth "discussion" ) Since I paid a considerable amount of money for my Mauser, I'd really rather not screw with it at all. If these gung-ho manufacturers could start producing upgradable bolt-actions that come about 395fps, our world would be perfect. Any new player could pick one up and field it right out of the box, and as their experience and/or maturity builds they could step up the velocity. Besides, it will only do so much for range differential anyway. If I take my 330fps SMG and over adjust the hop-up slightly, I'll match your range, although losing accuracy. But only one has to hit you, right? Besides, below 400 they don't hiss... ;D
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Ersatzjack
Corporal
"That silly Franz... he thinks we are winning."
Posts: 1,093
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Post by Ersatzjack on Dec 25, 2009 17:48:36 GMT -5
Besides, below 400 they don't hiss... ;D Exactly! ;D I for one like the fact that there are some weapons out there that people don't want to be hit with. It keeps heads down. I am working on increasing the bolt actions for the Russian side too. We've held almost 20 events in MOA and never had an injury. Shady is correct, the real danger is terrain related and even then its far safer than football. There is no perfectly safe airsoft event. Oh wait... chairsofting is pretty safe.
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Post by kken on Dec 25, 2009 18:45:00 GMT -5
heh trust me, i'm not chairsofter.
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Post by CharleyNovember on Dec 25, 2009 18:46:39 GMT -5
KKen ~ No offense here but TBJ has been running events for quite some time. Our FPS limits are 550 FPS with an MED of 100'. I guess since this is the case you will not attend Meatgrinder. I am sorry to hear that but understand everyone has thier limits and such. I can tell you we have not found 550 FPS to be dangerous when MED's are adhered too. there have been occasions when people have been shot slightly closer. I for one have been shot closer. It did no real damage.
This is why it is so hard to get people on the same page with regards to rules. Some feel 350fps is the absolute limit some feel 400. I have seen people play 430fps and no limit fps. My idea of safety comes at 400 FPS and below. I personally prefer my AEG's to shoot at about 350 and like you I realize that the difference between 350fps and 400fps is laughable range wise.
I do enjoy this discussion and hope we can all continue it.
Edit to note The field we use and who's insurance we use recently changed to 500FPS limit for sniper rifles
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Ersatzjack
Corporal
"That silly Franz... he thinks we are winning."
Posts: 1,093
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Post by Ersatzjack on Dec 25, 2009 23:09:41 GMT -5
heh trust me, i'm not chairsofter. Oh, I know that. I'm in your corner, trust me. I cried when they removed your douchbag posts. Pure poetry.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Dec 26, 2009 13:55:22 GMT -5
This is always a fun and worthwhile discussion and it's one we have run through several times in the past (Go back far enough in the archives and you'll find at least two such threads) What's different now is that in the past it was mostly conjecture and theory. Thankfully enough historic mil sim type events are being run by a variety of groups (Still relatively small in the grand airsoft scheme) that the dialogue is now based on experiences and lessons learned.
I suspect over time things will stabilize to something reasonably standardized but even then we'll probably find that a recommended but voluntary approach will be the most common tactic used. It has thus far worked quite well as the players attracted to our style of play seem to want to comply with the mindset sought and there is reasonably universal motivation to keep things safe, fun and as authentic as possible. Naturally as the community grows it will be less and less a case of fairly intimate gatherings where most everyone knows one another and that's when rulesets and monitoring have to be more formalized.
Great discussion nonetheless as it's always good to hear peoples input and thought process.
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Post by dercommissar on Dec 28, 2009 12:32:34 GMT -5
Where I play there are there are a lot of inexperienced people. Given the fact that we have such a throughput of people, we made the decision to make the rules a blanket 350 fps for everyone. This was done in the name of safety and fairness. We had a few minor incidents with people taking painful face wounds from 400+ weapons, they were nothing devastating, but it made us put our foot down. We believe in running friendly games; some people simply want to 'win' or make others suffer, and given the choice they would continue to buy more and more powerful weapons.
In a perfect world, our community would be more mature and these rules would not need to be so rigid. I am certain that some communities are more sophisticated or mature than others, so they can often run higher FPS without problem. It is one of those things where the group leaders have to make a judgement call in the best interest of their playerbase. If the community I played in ever did mature, I would be the first to suggest raising the FPS limit for bolt-actions. I think this is the one area where I can understand giving a weapon some kind of boost given the crippling rate of fire.
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Lev
Private 1st Class
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Post by Lev on Dec 28, 2009 13:53:56 GMT -5
Where I play there are there are a lot of inexperienced people. Given the fact that we have such a throughput of people, we made the decision to make the rules a blanket 350 fps for everyone. This was done in the name of safety and fairness. We had a few minor incidents with people taking painful face wounds from 400+ weapons, they were nothing devastating, but it made us put our foot down. We believe in running friendly games; some people simply want to 'win' or make others suffer, and given the choice they would continue to buy more and more powerful weapons. In a perfect world, our community would be more mature and these rules would not need to be so rigid. I am certain that some communities are more sophisticated or mature than others, so they can often run higher FPS without problem. It is one of those things where the group leaders have to make a judgement call in the best interest of their playerbase. If the community I played in ever did mature, I would be the first to suggest raising the FPS limit for bolt-actions. I think this is the one area where I can understand giving a weapon some kind of boost given the crippling rate of fire. I feel pretty strongly that the MOA's good safety record is the result of our 16+ player policy and often wonder if the mileage of others is the result of too many kids taking part without proper supervision.
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Post by CharleyNovember on Dec 28, 2009 14:09:00 GMT -5
I think younger players do ok if it is a parent and child combo. Parents dropping a 12 year old off to play a war game with a bunch of people that are sometimes much older baffles me.
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Sgt_Tom
Technical Sgt.
Combat!
Posts: 3,580
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Post by Sgt_Tom on Dec 28, 2009 17:32:25 GMT -5
The thing about the Child Parent thing is most parents probably aren't real excited about thier son's newly found Airsoft hobby. Maybe they are busy, not in good enough shape, aren't really interested, don't want to spend a lot of time and money buying uniforms and weapons.
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Post by dercommissar on Dec 28, 2009 17:37:51 GMT -5
Where I play there are there are a lot of inexperienced people. Given the fact that we have such a throughput of people, we made the decision to make the rules a blanket 350 fps for everyone. This was done in the name of safety and fairness. We had a few minor incidents with people taking painful face wounds from 400+ weapons, they were nothing devastating, but it made us put our foot down. We believe in running friendly games; some people simply want to 'win' or make others suffer, and given the choice they would continue to buy more and more powerful weapons. In a perfect world, our community would be more mature and these rules would not need to be so rigid. I am certain that some communities are more sophisticated or mature than others, so they can often run higher FPS without problem. It is one of those things where the group leaders have to make a judgement call in the best interest of their playerbase. If the community I played in ever did mature, I would be the first to suggest raising the FPS limit for bolt-actions. I think this is the one area where I can understand giving a weapon some kind of boost given the crippling rate of fire. I feel pretty strongly that the MOA's good safety record is the result of our 16+ player policy and often wonder if the mileage of others is the result of too many kids taking part without proper supervision. I hate to say it but for us it is less about age anymore and more about attitude. The majority, if not all of our regulars are 16+, we do not let children play. Even though we do not have many younger players, the simple fact is that generally the mentality is not as developed like some of the units you see on here. Airsoft comes first and WW2 accuracy a marked second. It is a really casual group we have, and the majority are great guys. But, there are always some people who view it more as a proving ground than anything else. Given all of this I feel our rules work nicely. It is not that I even think higher FPS play is by nature dangerous, just that it is not suited to more casual players like ourselves.
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Post by Fusilier on Dec 28, 2009 19:19:45 GMT -5
Airsoft comes first and WW2 accuracy a marked second. >> Is that because everybody WANTS it like that, or,it just is? Do you and others WANT to get better, or are happy doing whatever in regards to authenticity?
I'm just curious.
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Post by dercommissar on Dec 28, 2009 20:11:37 GMT -5
Airsoft comes first and WW2 accuracy a marked second. >> Is that because everybody WANTS it like that, or,it just is? Do you and others WANT to get better, or are happy doing whatever in regards to authenticity? I'm just curious. Some of us want to do accurate WW2 airsoft, the majority just likes to shoot plastic at each other. The balance is trying to keep everyone safe and happy. That's why our group is WW2 airsoft in a really casual sense.
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Post by Fusilier on Dec 28, 2009 20:39:45 GMT -5
Airsoft comes first and WW2 accuracy a marked second. >> Is that because everybody WANTS it like that, or,it just is? Do you and others WANT to get better, or are happy doing whatever in regards to authenticity? I'm just curious. Some of us want to do accurate WW2 airsoft, the majority just likes to shoot plastic at each other. The balance is trying to keep everyone safe and happy. That's why our group is WW2 airsoft in a really casual sense. >>> So its WW2 "KINDA"? Sounds like its a show up and wear whatever type group,which is ok, its just not WW2 airsoft in the strict sense. Does everyone use WW2 weapons? Or do one or two guys have WW2 stuff and the rest modern, or whatever? I mean,I'm all for modern type lets go out and blast each other with whatever weapons we bring type events,but i'm also getting heavily involved in doing 100% WW2 AS events, as are 99% of the people on here. Is that your goal??
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Post by CharleyNovember on Dec 28, 2009 22:14:31 GMT -5
Lead by example. Full kit or as full as you can do and keep improving with a WW2 weapon first it will be just you maybe a couple other guys then you will have a half dozen or a dozen and you are suddenly doing invite only full on WW2 games and then others will gravitate towards you if they are really interested. Add in some game days that allow people to see what it is all about as partisans or use WW2 lite rules and you will add a couple more each time probably.
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Post by dercommissar on Dec 29, 2009 6:45:41 GMT -5
I did not really want to derail this thread with my particular group, but since you guys are interested.
At this point around 70% of the unit uses side accurate WW2 weapons. Everyone who is in the unit as a 'member' has some form of uniform as well. The higher you go, the more accurate the uniforms and weapons are. The best example is that me and the groups co-founder are pretty accurately kitted. There are efforts to increase the realism, but as I keep saying the group is only vaguely interested in accurate WW2 airsoft. It was an epic effort just to get most people basic kit and period weapons.
For these reasons I would never really list us on this website as a unit. It is a great group of guys, but it just is not approaching the level of professionalism that units here display. We generally make efforts to improve the unit, but until the community desires a more realistic WW2 experience we will always be fighting an uphill battle.
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Post by spitfire740 on Jan 1, 2010 19:52:36 GMT -5
The whole point is to be 100% accurate. WW2 Airsoft Association is a means to replace the unrealistic effect of taking hits in Blank fire reenacting. It's SUPPOSED to be stitch nazi
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Post by dercommissar on Jan 1, 2010 20:18:23 GMT -5
The whole point is to be 100% accurate. WW2 Airsoft Association is a means to replace the unrealistic effect of taking hits in Blank fire reenacting. It's SUPPOSED to be stitch nazi There is not much I can say to that. That's why my unit is not 'WW2AA' and probably never will be. We strive to improve, but we will most likely never reach the reenactor blank firing grade accuracy. I still find this community to be very informative irregardless of attitudes towards lesser units.
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Sgt_Tom
Technical Sgt.
Combat!
Posts: 3,580
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Post by Sgt_Tom on Jan 1, 2010 21:46:03 GMT -5
The whole point is to be 100% accurate. WW2 Airsoft Association is a means to replace the unrealistic effect of taking hits in Blank fire reenacting. It's SUPPOSED to be stitch nazi There is not much I can say to that. That's why my unit is not 'WW2AA' and probably never will be. We strive to improve, but we will most likely never reach the reenactor blank firing grade accuracy. I still find this community to be very informative irregardless of attitudes towards lesser units. Stitch Nazism is not for everyone. I don't expect everyone to be one. If you want to host your own WWII themed events and you enjoy it go ahead do what you enjoy.
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Post by spitfire740 on Jan 2, 2010 21:51:07 GMT -5
I believe if you read the bylaws and main page website, it clearly states moderate authenticity for beginners, but impressions will need to improve over time. I have nothing against Dercommisar with not being "associated" with WW2aa because he doesnt strive for the authenticity factor. Of course he is more than welcome to show interest in the hobby and support it without following the guidelines.
BUT if you want to be associated with the WW2aa you have to at least have intent to have 100% accurate stitch-nazi impressions. I'm not trying to cause an argument, but this is why blank fire reenactors and those on the WW2 reenactors board think so negatively towards airsoft-enactors. Which is depressing since its designed in THEIR interests. It's the entire PURPOSE of ww2aa.
Sgt Tom, if u feel that way, then I suggest that this organization is not for you. Don't flame, me because its not my opinion - its fact. I think Gordak would agree with me on this
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Sgt_Tom
Technical Sgt.
Combat!
Posts: 3,580
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Post by Sgt_Tom on Jan 2, 2010 21:57:03 GMT -5
Its a free county, the guy can do anything he wants that isn't outside of the law. He's not forcing his beliefs on you or advertising his events to you. I never said I felt the way he does, I just think that he has the right to his opinion.
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Post by spitfire740 on Jan 2, 2010 22:08:35 GMT -5
and I said the exact same if you read my post
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Post by dercommissar on Jan 2, 2010 22:17:00 GMT -5
I believe if you read the bylaws and main page website, it clearly states moderate authenticity for beginners, but impressions will need to improve over time. I have nothing against Dercommisar with not being "associated" with WW2aa because he doesnt strive for the authenticity factor. Of course he is more than welcome to show interest in the hobby and support it without following the guidelines. BUT if you want to be associated with the WW2aa you have to at least have intent to have 100% accurate stitch-nazi impressions. I'm not trying to cause an argument, but this is why blank fire reenactors and those on the WW2 reenactors board think so negatively towards airsoft-enactors. Which is depressing since its designed in THEIR interests. It's the entire PURPOSE of ww2aa. Sgt Tom, if u feel that way, then I suggest that this organization is not for you. Don't flame, me because its not my opinion - its fact. I think Gordak would agree with me on this A number of our community do blank firing re-enacting, some from more than one time period. The situation like I was trying to explain is difficult. I am not going to alienate the majority of our playerbase in the name of pleasing myself and a couple of others. Personally I regret even leveling about my group, something I almost never do on the internet. I never meant to derail this read or start any kind of spat, lesson learned. Towards you wanting me to leave. Fair enough, if that's how this community is run, I shall part ways. I do not feel any ill will towards all of you, and I actually wish you the best of luck. There are some truly talented individuals, and I take away some valuable knowledge. It is a shame that me, nor my unit cannot throw in with your lot. I think alienating people who share a similar interest is short sighted, but you may run your community however you wish. We simply have to agree to disagree.
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Post by spitfire740 on Jan 2, 2010 22:24:14 GMT -5
What the HELL?? Did I say anything about wanting you to leave?
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Post by spitfire740 on Jan 2, 2010 23:48:00 GMT -5
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Post by shadycadence on Jan 3, 2010 9:17:13 GMT -5
What the HELL?? Did I say anything about wanting you to leave? Well, in a round about, backhanded way, yes, you did. See, he said "Airsoft comes first and WW2 accuracy a marked second.". You responded "The whole point is to be 100% accurate.". Sgttom replied "Stitch Nazism is not for everyone.". To which you came back with "Sgt Tom, if u feel that way, then I suggest that this organization is not for you.". You even followed it with "Don't flame, me because its not my opinion - its fact.". Did you follow the vernacular dynamic there? Technically, you suggested they both leave. I'm pretty sure this crowd appreciates the benefit of inclusion and sees 100% authenticity to be a goal, not a prerequisite. Please refrain from throwing down ultimatums to fellow members. If the Admins feel someone is outside the scope of this forum, they will deal with it.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Jan 5, 2010 21:04:26 GMT -5
Thank you Shady Cadence there is a mixed perspective on what they expectations should be even among the moderators but the collective goal is to promote WW2 airsoft events and there are several ways to get there in my opinion. One is to set a high standard that would appeal to even the most dilligent advocate of authenticity and the other is to go there progressively with a more welcoming attitude and approach. Both have their advantages. I personally have found decommisars approach to be the most effective in growing the community and am more interested in the tactics and flow of the events than the uniforms and gear. In the process of that approach we have apparently created an atmosphere that is acceptable to many within the reenactor community who find our gameplay more appealing than what they experience in the blankfire community. It took many years of incremental enhancements before the events reached that point but without the steps and compromises I personally don't think they ever would have gotten there.
There's lots of ways to skin a cat and our communuty of interest is too small in my opinion to turn folks of similar mind away.
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elder90
Private 1st Class
Posts: 643
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Post by elder90 on Feb 9, 2010 14:51:00 GMT -5
Here in Colorado there arent any WWII airsoft games but at the huge modern games there is a rule that goes for every game...Mid/low caps only. I use Mids in my M16 because there is never anytime to reload. if you get hit there is a very long walk back to the CCP and when you get there there is usually a squad leader trying to put together a new mixed unit to go out to reenforce the forces that are fighting right now. I am trying to switch over but it is very expencive to get low caps or real caps for all my guns. I have a ton of mags for my thompson that are 47 rounds each and it is so much fun to have to reload constantly when they are charging.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Feb 14, 2010 14:04:21 GMT -5
Interestingly with regard to FPS limits in accordance to the weapon used the STG44 would be an interesting discussion as it was a full automatic but fired rifle ammunition. (The first true assault rifle) If the events ever reach a point where FPS should be comensurate with power and accuracy of the represented weapon (something that could never be truly incorporated accurately) The sub machine guns firing pistol ammunition. (Thompson, Grease gun, MP40, Sten etc. should be limited to 290 FPS and no hop up. Rifles should be limited to semi auto unless an MP44, BAR etc. but can fire up to 400 FPS. Bolt actisons (although actually no more powerful than a semi auto rifle, should be allowed up to 550 FPS. This sort of rule would create advantages and limitations but in the case of the SMGs, (Their range and accuracy would still be disproportianately good with regard to an airsoft rifle as laid out by these limits)
Ammo capacity should be limited to double what the weapon magazine allowed. Thompson Low cap at 60 rds, Garand limited to 16 rounds, Springfield 10 rounds, Enfield 20 etc. A BAR should probably be allowed a hi cap to repressnt it's role as a squad automatic weapon and Machine guns allowed box magazines.
At the close ranges of airsoft the buly size and length of the crew served weapons and SAWs should enjoy some upside however minimal. The difference in functional range for a airsoft gun firing at 550 FPS vs 290 FPS is quite minimal in reality. (A quick sprint closes the stand off distance) Still it would provide some upsides and downsides.
Naturally at this point all of this is a discussion since we certainly aren't at the point of a governing standard or widespread enough participation to dictate any such things. Fun kicking it around however.
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