Nimlas
Master sergeant
grumpy
Posts: 1,594
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Post by Nimlas on Nov 30, 2006 22:02:05 GMT -5
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Post by themango on Nov 30, 2006 22:11:37 GMT -5
Oh my goodness I saw that...ridiculous it is...
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TommyGunner
Staff Sgt.
Hackjob Mauro
1st Marine Division, 1942
Posts: 2,265
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Post by TommyGunner on Dec 1, 2006 1:27:54 GMT -5
You can even see that Olive Green Paint under the fake OD paint Job where he tried to wear it down.........I really hate people, mostly the stupid ones.
TommyGunner
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Dec 1, 2006 1:48:52 GMT -5
Not that I would ever spend $5,900.00 for a helmet but I wouldn't claim to be enough of an expert to categorically declare the listing as fake. Especially not based on what little I know and the pictures shown. I'm curious what specifically are the details that make you all so completely confident it's not authentic?
I'm sure I'm showing my ignorance here but I'd like to know. I note there are no bidders so apparently no one else is biting either. What are the obvious signs to look for?
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Post by 101steasykid on Dec 1, 2006 5:16:57 GMT -5
That's what I was thinking. I Emailed it to two of my friends, and of course, they said it was a fake. But to me, it looked pretty good. I think where TommyGunner said the paint There is Olive Green popping out really is to do with the camera, and not the helmet. Like 2nd bat said, it could be fake, but it has a pretty good story behind it, looks pretty authentic to me. I probably would need to see the liner, and not just the shell. I mean it doesn't have a leather strap, so maybe is a fix up Vietnam helmet?
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Dec 1, 2006 13:28:25 GMT -5
I agree that odds are it's fake but wanted details as to how one would specifically know that especially from a series of pictures and a brief story. For instance were names stencilled on the helmet liners for that unit? If so are the colors right? The capture story explains the good condition and presence of the leather chin strap.
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Nimlas
Master sergeant
grumpy
Posts: 1,594
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Post by Nimlas on Dec 1, 2006 15:52:02 GMT -5
The cork job is crap There are no clear pictures of the front, which would lead me to beleive it's rear seam. I've seen atleast 2 of these "ponds" helmets on ebay already. You can CLEARLY see where he aged the chinstrap with sand paper The 'aging' on the A frame buckles is ridiculous. I've examine original D bale helmets from Sicily, and the buckles have NO RUST OR WEAR.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Dec 1, 2006 16:27:38 GMT -5
Now we're talking and giving us something to look for. I strongly doubt he's dumb enough to try to run a rear seamer through as that's pretty much the only WW2 helmet attribute most people know about. The sand papered chin strap certainly looked questionable. I actually thought the web aging looking credible as did the corrosion on the buckle. Corrosion certainly isn't going to be consistent on seperate items exposed to vastly different conditions. Cork effect's I guess I don't know enough about (I actually thought it looked pretty good.) I still wonder about the stencilled name on the liner as if that was done as shown it would be nice to know and replicate. The liner and helmet webbing looked the right vintage and style didn't it? Again $5,900 for a helmet seems rediculous to me no matter what the story but it'll be interesting to see if he gets any bids. Could your Ponds helmets you've seen listed before be the same helmet with more then one effort to sell it? I know actual WW2 US airborne helmets have exploded in value much as german stuff did years ago but I had know idea they had reached this level of $ even with credible providence.
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Nimlas
Master sergeant
grumpy
Posts: 1,594
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Post by Nimlas on Dec 1, 2006 16:38:32 GMT -5
"ON ONE OF THE D-RINGS HAS A FIELD REPAIR WITH A GOLD BRAISING LEFT FROM THE WELDING WHICH WAS MOST LIKELY REPAIRED IN ENGLAND. I AQUIRED THIS"
I also thought it was interesting that there was no picture included for something as large as a 'feild repair'.
You can also clearly see that the ball end on the chinstrap that keeps the strap from fraying and going back through the buckled is seperated from the webbing.
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silencer
Private 1st Class
Spartan by blood
Posts: 407
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Post by silencer on Dec 1, 2006 17:33:14 GMT -5
I think it interesting, that he says it was picked up off the beaches of normandy. I think i saw that, but its an 506th able helmet, meaning its from airborne...
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Nimlas
Master sergeant
grumpy
Posts: 1,594
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Post by Nimlas on Dec 1, 2006 17:37:17 GMT -5
"HELMET FROM A GOOD FRIEND OF MINE WHO HAS A MASSIVE COLLECTION OF WW2 AIRBORNE. HE PURCHASED THE HELMET IN 1978 IN A SMALL TOWN OF RAVENOVILLE FRANCE. ARCHIE PONDS WAS CAPTURED ON D-DAY IN RAVENOVILLE. A LOCAL FARMER AND MILITARY COLLECTER AQURIED IT FROM HIS FATHER WHO PICKED UP ALOT OF THE AIRBORNE GEAR THAT WAS DROPED ON HIS LAND DURING THE INVASION" No where in there does it say it was picked up off the beaches of Normandy and we already established it was airborne. I think it's a fake, and I'm sticking by it.
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Post by wade on Dec 1, 2006 17:42:14 GMT -5
Looks like one of those cheap toy helmets I bought when I was 9, only with a paint job.
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Post by 5thrangerinfantry on Dec 1, 2006 19:05:20 GMT -5
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Post by wade on Dec 1, 2006 19:14:50 GMT -5
That's actually not that bad considering it's the original...if it's the original...
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silencer
Private 1st Class
Spartan by blood
Posts: 407
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Post by silencer on Dec 1, 2006 19:27:25 GMT -5
o my bad. I was just going off of memory im mistaken.
I think it looks good in my opinion though. It looks like all original ww2 stuff, just maybe not from the same helmet. And maybe the steel pot isnt original....
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Nimlas
Master sergeant
grumpy
Posts: 1,594
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Post by Nimlas on Dec 1, 2006 19:36:12 GMT -5
o my bad. I was just going off of memory im mistaken. I think it looks good in my opinion though. It looks like all original ww2 stuff, just maybe not from the same helmet. And maybe the steel pot isnt original.... If it's not from the same helmet, then the story is shot. Hence it is a fake 506th able helmet.
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Post by Gordak on Dec 1, 2006 20:12:08 GMT -5
Patina is the dirty water treatment which is the classic ebay aging trick, its important to instantly ignore such helmets. But is see allot of glaring issues so ill go on,
You can see discoloration in the paint where the left side D bail was reatached... which indicates it was done recently, not only do I wonder who the hell would do such a repair to an original, if you did repair an original, it would not discolor (bake) the paint because 60 year old paint has no moisture left, yet you can clearly see the discoloration in the paint where all the hydrate was burned out of it. And even then, the discoloration still be visible after 60 years? its dead nuts bad. Also very suspicious that he doesn't want to show the seams. The buckle on the a-frame has stained the canvas with rust, however it is not rusted itself... Ive handled 5 or 6 original D bails, and NONE look like that. Remember these helmets were worth allot of money in the 80s they had all become shiny from so many people handling them over 60 years, and when they are not shiny, they a mint condition untouched. so... The real killer is the dirt, followed closely by the discoloration where the d bail was attached. and then the parade of other iffy little details, this guy got a skrewed by an easygreen (ebay seller) helmet and is just trying to get his money back or most likely in this case, more.
-Gordak
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Nimlas
Master sergeant
grumpy
Posts: 1,594
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Post by Nimlas on Dec 1, 2006 21:45:45 GMT -5
Just because there's a good story behind an item DOES NOT mean it's authentic.
I have a protec helmet here I got from Gordak, you know, the ones that the Delta Force guys wear in Black Hawk Down. It's a bit worn, and beat up. Now, I could go to ebay and SAY That it was used by a real Delta operator during operation Gothic serpant, but we all know that it most certainly wasn't. So just because there's a 'story' behind an item doesn't mean its 100% authentic. These ebayer's will do anything make a buck.
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29ththerealpimps
Private 1st Class
3rd Armored Division 32nd Armored Regiment 83rd Recon Battalion
Posts: 706
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Post by 29ththerealpimps on Dec 1, 2006 22:50:46 GMT -5
the yokes are market garden type (green that means westinghouse i think)
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Dec 2, 2006 1:53:26 GMT -5
Great info here and just what I was looking for. Ebay is definitely a "Buyer Beware" venue and one would think that anyone spending that kind of dough on a helmet would be knowledgeable enough to spot the things pointed out. That however is a rational statement and thse things sometimes aren't rational. The other possibility is the seller is hoping some rich rich rich trophy wife of a millionaire with a WW2 bent is looking for a surprise gift and this just fits the bill perfectly. Naturally when hubby opens up his gift on Christmas and knows immediately it's a scam he probably feels he can't say anything to said trophy wife so he just smiles gives her a kiss and pretends to be delighted.
Collectibles are a fun thing. It's good to know we on the boards have folks we can turn to for expertise on such matters should we find ourselves with thousands of dollars burning holes in our pockets and the over powering desire to buy a really expensive helmet. Thanks for the detailed input everyone. If I had to put money on it I'd say it'll be a no sale item. Same with the Rosenthaul flag raising picture.
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Post by wade on Dec 2, 2006 9:24:24 GMT -5
I looked up Ravenoville on Google Maps, and it's somewhere along Utah Beach, on the East side of Normandy. Am I mistaken or did the 101st land on the Western side, or the Central part of Normandy?
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Dec 2, 2006 14:18:07 GMT -5
Ravenville is definitely within the realm of 101st troop drops. (All of Normandy is really) Both the 82nd and 101st droppped inland from Utah Beach. The 82nd to the North and the 101st to the South. That was the plan anyway. The reality is they were scattered all over the area. I have a West Point after action report with interview results from all the survivors. It shows the actual landing points estimated from the survivors) for every stick in the invasion. It is amazing they were able to reorganize sufficiently to accomplish their objectives. At least one stick (101st) landed in the channel with two troopesrs close enough to shore to join the RANGERs in their assault on Pointe D Hoc! They became part of Col Ritters security element at his HQ on the bluff. Lots of fascinating anecdotes from the airborne elements.
I also have original BIGOT CLASSIFIED War Department Company commanders and above tactical as issued maps for Ste mere Eglise, Carentan and Ste Marie Du Mont (Utah Beach) They are fascinating. And yes they are definitely original. My own fathers foot locker of stuff.
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Post by mauser98k on Dec 2, 2006 16:32:42 GMT -5
This is the 2nd or third time he has listed this same exact helmet, and since then he had made some changes. Before if you look closely you can see that it was a swivel bale helmet, he tried to match the paint but couldn't. Since then he has sanded it. He also lacks the photos of the liner, which is also a dead give away that he is afraid to show.
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guitarmaster
Corporal
And at this range, I'm a real Frederick Zoller
Posts: 954
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Post by guitarmaster on Dec 2, 2006 16:50:22 GMT -5
It looks like he did post some of the liner but really up close. Correct me if i am wrong but you can tell by the paint and dullnes. And the roughness.
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Nimlas
Master sergeant
grumpy
Posts: 1,594
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Post by Nimlas on Dec 2, 2006 17:23:31 GMT -5
It looks like he did post some of the liner but really up close. Correct me if i am wrong but you can tell by the paint and dullnes. And the roughness. There are no photos of the inside of the liner though.
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guitarmaster
Corporal
And at this range, I'm a real Frederick Zoller
Posts: 954
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Post by guitarmaster on Dec 2, 2006 18:55:23 GMT -5
WEll actually there is one the second row 3rd picture down u see some of it but yeah ur right there isnt really any of just the liner.
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TommyGunner
Staff Sgt.
Hackjob Mauro
1st Marine Division, 1942
Posts: 2,265
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Post by TommyGunner on Dec 2, 2006 23:06:13 GMT -5
The one major thing that tips me off is the weathering on the helmate itself, if any of you are model builders than you know of something called a wash, what a wash is, is it is a mixture of black, grey, and brown paint thinned down and made to look like dirt, this can be applied to give a model plane, tank or anything a good aging/dirty used effect, but it ages all the colors the same if you apply the same wash over the entire thing, but all colors aged diferently and the entire helmate is perfectly aged to one dirty color (white is too dirty), it also has an unatural slight glossy look to it, its too uniformed to be natural.
TommyGunner
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Nimlas
Master sergeant
grumpy
Posts: 1,594
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Post by Nimlas on Dec 2, 2006 23:16:00 GMT -5
That's exactly what Gordak was talking about TG. You can see where it pooled up around the cork texture. Washes are great when you want to add detail(although I had one turn blue, it was stange.) A 60 year old helmet is bound to have been handled so many times it becomes shiny. My original front seam fixed bail is very shiny, still factory paint though. I think this is how people got off think that helmets were shiny, you need to look at unissued helmets to see the true finish.
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