Jerry-ADK
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Post by Jerry-ADK on Mar 8, 2014 23:26:45 GMT -5
I planning on attending this event in Ontario, Operation Woodsman . These guys have a top notch event, once you enter the gate it's WW2 for the weekend. I was wondering if a contingent of us Yanks would like to make a soljurn to the Great North to join the fun? It's in September, so we got some time to plan for it. Getting guns across the border shouldn't be a problem, I'll look into what we will need in the way of paperwork to cross into Canada without hassles. I think it will be good for us to take part in this event. We will have a blast and get some ideas on how we an make our events more immersive.
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Post by insterburger on Mar 9, 2014 0:26:27 GMT -5
It's a long way off, but I am tentatively in.
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ersatzjack2
Private 1st Class
"We can still win this thing, once the secret weapons arrive."
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Post by ersatzjack2 on Mar 9, 2014 3:14:37 GMT -5
Two questions. Has anybody been to this before? Secondly, if so, does anybody know the expected number of participants and ok, I lied, (three questions) how large is the playing field.
Sounds like a well planned event.
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Jerry-ADK
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Posts: 418
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Post by Jerry-ADK on Mar 9, 2014 8:49:51 GMT -5
Two questions. Has anybody been to this before? Secondly, if so, does anybody know the expected number of participants and ok, I lied, (three questions) how large is the playing field. Sounds like a well planned event. I have not gone to this event, so I don't know the answers to those questions. It's close to my home so I am willing to just go and see. I have posted on the WW2 Ontario forum and they are a nice group, very friendly and have been encouraging us to keep up with our events in the East and invited us to come to their big event. I assume it's pretty big at least by NE standards. Ontario WWII Reenactors Forum. Here is the link to their forum. Feel free to join and talk with them about it. They have a very active WW2 community up there and don't seem to have the issues we have with the BF guys poo pooing us.
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Post by shiftsup on Mar 9, 2014 10:53:07 GMT -5
I was at Woodsman 2013 and will most likely be at Woodsman 2014. Woodsman 2013 had roughly 35 participants. At least that many are anticipated for 2014. The field size, not exactly sure, possibly 40 acres.....not 100% sure. Most of the field is fairly dense woods, easy to lose your bearings if you have only been there once. A compass is handy. I had a good time. Contact with the enemy wasn't constant. It wasn't "ok get out there and fight".
Personally I have played enough airsoft over the last 6 years so shooting at a bunch of guys 120 feet away really doesn't do it for me anymore. I ran a few patrols where I purposely decided to avoid the enemy at all costs. Gave vague or incomplete orders etc etc influenced by the immersion idea of 90% boredom and 10% panic for those lucky GI's under my command. More or less my attempt to make the event less "airsoft" and more "re-enactment".
Most of last years attendants had very good impressions. I recall maybe 3 or 4 dodgy ones; players with Commonwealth impressions. Most if not all of the weapons used were wwii airsoft. Grease Guns, Garands, Thmompsons and Stens for the Allies. 98K,s MP40's MP44's and MG42 for the Axis. One guy even had a Panzerschreck that shot fireworks...not sure if that'll be back for round 2. Allies had 4 WPG Handie Talkies. Axis had field phones running from the FOB to the CP. Rubber / Resin grenades were used as well as cold burning smoke.
Woodsman 2013 operations started at dusk on the Friday and ran until roughly 0200 hrs on Saturday. Operations resumed at 0800 hrs Saturday. The biggest hitch was the weather. It rained all of Saturday. Operations ceased around 1800 hrs on the Saturday. After operations ceased there was hot food and drink served in a sheltered common area.
The Allied camp consisted of numerous period tents with period accoutrements. I slept on the ground in a 2 man officers tent. Groundsheet, GI blanket and GI Sleeping bag. Rations were kept in a C ration crate. GI Coleman stoves were used as well as those instant fuel cells (painted OD of course). P38 can openers came in handy. I even brought a ww2 dated civilian stove top espresso pot. Hot coffee after all that rain sure tasted good. No camp fire in the Allied camp. Little or no light and a guard on duty.
Our Lt even handed out mail. Letters were an enjoyable read. One guy learned that his pick up truck back home had been re-possessed.
If you have any questions, I'll be happy to answer. Also feel free to join the Ontario ww2 reenactor site.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 9, 2014 11:47:25 GMT -5
Sounds really top notch. It would be interesting to learn how challenging transporting airsoft weapons over the border is and what steps need to be taken. When I hold large events in the northwest which are frequently attended by participants from other countries we supply loaner weapons and avoid the issue altogether. It would be a pain to have to affix orange tips if required and CUSTOMS especially Canada can be awkward.
US laws governing airsoft guns are quite interesting and NOT at all commonly undersood byUS Customs officers. My Brother retired from US Customs and even today the steps and seizures they do are actually backward in most cases. The statutes as written should treat them as projectile shooting toys but instead treat them as replicas which interestingly have greater restrictions.
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Post by shiftsup on Mar 9, 2014 12:11:19 GMT -5
I imagine loaners for out of country participants would be a possibility. Cannot see why not.
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Post by brownien on Mar 9, 2014 13:41:47 GMT -5
I too am really interested in attending in the fall. If I can make it, I could possibly bring a small squad of GI's with garands and a BAR, but I really want to make sure that customs won't steal my guns! With 4 garands and a BAR roughly $1500 invested into these guns personally, I really want to be sure the trip goes without a hitch.
Also, I tried to sign up for the Ontario forum but I haven't received a confirmation back.
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Post by shiftsup on Mar 9, 2014 13:56:18 GMT -5
brownien, what nickname did you use to sign up on the Ontario forum?
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Post by brownien on Mar 9, 2014 14:01:51 GMT -5
Same as here, brownien.
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Post by shiftsup on Mar 9, 2014 14:17:23 GMT -5
brownien, re apply.
Looks like your membership was treated like spam.
I will pm the mod.
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Post by brownien on Mar 9, 2014 14:54:59 GMT -5
Will do!
Edit: Resubmitted
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Post by shiftsup on Mar 9, 2014 15:04:45 GMT -5
See you on the memberlist now. Moderator has been given the heads up that you're real and not Viagra.
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ScottCollins
Private 1st Class
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Post by ScottCollins on Mar 9, 2014 16:27:19 GMT -5
This is why I've never made any effort yet: "This is a adult event all participants must be over the age of 18. Minors may be present if they are over the age of 14 and in attendance with and participating with their parent or legal guardian. Persons under the age of 17 may only play the partisan role. Parents who wish to attend with younger children must get authorization from the event organizers in advance."
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Jerry-ADK
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Posts: 418
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Post by Jerry-ADK on Mar 9, 2014 17:04:40 GMT -5
One of the members told me we would be able to use loaners if we didn't want to risk having our guns seized at the border. But I think that if we fill out the proper paperwork and call ahead we should get through. I have gone through as a rev war reenactor I guess they have no problem with real muskets. That was also pre 911, things have changed a bit. If we travel as a caravan it would help. And bring information about the event we are attending.
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Post by insterburger on Mar 9, 2014 18:24:33 GMT -5
This is why I've never made any effort yet: "This is a adult event all participants must be over the age of 18. Minors may be present if they are over the age of 14 and in attendance with and participating with their parent or legal guardian. Persons under the age of 17 may only play the partisan role. Parents who wish to attend with younger children must get authorization from the event organizers in advance." And if you do get permission from the organizers, and have a parent who is willing to drive you, make absolutely sure you have a note-- preferably a notarized one-- from the other parent stating that (presumably) she has full knowledge and consent that you are crossing into Canada, and what dates you intend to be there. Otherwise, you WILL be turned back.
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Post by aj czarkowski on Mar 9, 2014 19:50:17 GMT -5
This is why I've never made any effort yet: "This is a adult event all participants must be over the age of 18. Minors may be present if they are over the age of 14 and in attendance with and participating with their parent or legal guardian. Persons under the age of 17 may only play the partisan role. Parents who wish to attend with younger children must get authorization from the event organizers in advance." And that's a good reason not to in my opinion
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 10, 2014 18:35:40 GMT -5
With my events TYPICALLY I have employed the same exact rule for minors. Once we establish that said minors are exemplary in terms of behavior, game manship and maturity they still require a parental notarized release BUT no longer have to have the parent present. Certainly I would have no qualms about any of the young players who were at The Bulge event as all were terrific.
Without the requirement there was no way to save the mature players (this includes responsible younger players) from the disruptions young people can present. A disruptive adult you can simply send home. A minor who has been dropped off by a parent you're all stuck with. I certainly don't fault them for the rule.
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Post by aj czarkowski on Mar 10, 2014 18:59:32 GMT -5
I guess I just have never seen any immature players at any event I've been to... being a junior in high school I cannot see how a 17 year old, or 16 year old for that matter could have such bad sportsmanship. I've been going to nearly all the WWII and Vietnam airsoft games in my area since I was 13, and even then I didn't even need my parents to sign a wavier (although most of the other players knew me by then). Well, I guess there's always sore losers can't do anything about that
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 11, 2014 21:42:33 GMT -5
Unfortunately there are a lot of young players whose maturity is just not acceptable and the risk to an event sponsor is too great. As you stated I have witnessed both extremely mature and responsible players who were mature beyond their years and unmangangeable kids (of all ages) who ruin an event for everyone else. If an incident occures that was initiated by a non adult attending without a parent or guardian the sponsor has no legal recourse and typically does not have the ability to throw them out. In addition insurance usually will not cover incidents attended by minors or if attended by minors triple the rates for the event. A normal event, million dollar policy costs about $700 to 900.00 for weekend event of up to 200 players. Suddenly they don't pay off if they discover minors were present or want $2,700.00 for the weekend coverage if you are admitting minors.
A much cheaper insurance is to go uninsured (big risk to the sponsor) but self insure by placing restrictions that DO result in better behaviors and a safer environment. This reality of course sucks when you're a minor but whether you like it or not is reality. I have seen rowdiness and imaturity at events with a preponderance of under 18 but have never seen it when the young people are in the presents of mostly responible adults, especially their parents. Parents who actively support their kids activities tend to raise far better behaved kids which probably is the main dynamic at work. I have met a lot of absolutely amazing young people through airsoft who have gone on to do amazing things. Most advocates of our version of airsoft are quite different than the typicl young airsofter.
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Post by aj czarkowski on Mar 12, 2014 18:13:02 GMT -5
Definitely our version of airsoft is quite different from the others, and most players if not all of them (that I've met anyway) are very responsible and to avoid the policy you mentioned, self insuring by placing restrictions for a safer behavior and environment is a great idea. Whether that means lower fps limits or a further minimum engagement distance. The problem with not allowing younger players is that, especially those who are 14-16, there is a 50/50 chance that they will loose interest in a couple of years. For instance I used to have four friends who accompanied me to pretty much every WWII or Vietnam themed airsoft event that was held in my area. Out of the five of us, two years later there is only two of us. And out of the two of us, we no longer want to drive more than two hours max to an event. Signing waivers by the parent of guardian is probably the best way to go, with the minimum age being 14 or 15.
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Jerry-ADK
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Post by Jerry-ADK on Mar 12, 2014 19:27:22 GMT -5
Definitely our version of airsoft is quite different from the others, and most players if not all of them (that I've met anyway) are very responsible and to avoid the policy you mentioned, self insuring by placing restrictions for a safer behavior and environment is a great idea. Whether that means lower fps limits or a further minimum engagement distance. The problem with not allowing younger players is that, especially those who are 14-16, there is a 50/50 chance that they will loose interest in a couple of years. For instance I used to have four friends who accompanied me to pretty much every WWII or Vietnam themed airsoft event that was held in my area. Out of the five of us, two years later there is only two of us. And out of the two of us, we no longer want to drive more than two hours max to an event. Signing waivers by the parent of guardian is probably the best way to go, with the minimum age being 14 or 15. One solution for younger players is to join a organized airsoft team with adults who allow in players who are under 16. We have such a unit started here in the North East. We are certainly not opposed to a player who is 14 so long as he/she is mature and acts responsible, and their parent has signed off. Usually a parent wants to know that their kid is in a safe environment. And being part of a unit can help foster safety with members watching out for each other. I believe airsoft is a sport that should be enjoyed by young and old alike. Airsoft after all brings out the kid in us in a good way. Besides, young players are the future for this hobby we should try and in courage and accommodate them. And if they get too rowdy we put them on KP.
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Post by ssgjoe on Mar 12, 2014 21:59:58 GMT -5
It seems that a lot of the younger guys that are rowdy are like that because they play too much video games. Some of them really don't have the same respect a lot of us have for history. Where we study, they play and think the Thompson is amazing because they get lots of kills with it. But, as the WWII video game hype has been kinda gone for the last few years, this is more of a problem in modern airsoft, not so much WWII. I am 16, and I do not play video games. I think they're fun and like to play them at my friends house, but I don't do it too much. I'm not saying that if you play video games you're like this, but many of the kids like this are that way because they play TOO MANY video games. That's just my two cents.
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Post by ssgjoe on Mar 12, 2014 22:02:45 GMT -5
But airsoft is a good way to teach safe gun handling and respect to other players. When they're on line from videos I've seen on YouTube, they talk downright trash to other players. But if you talk that way to a player in airsoft (if you've got the balls to do it) then you won't be too well liked by everyone else. It is really a quick way to learn common courtesy. Lol
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shiftysgarand
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Post by shiftysgarand on Mar 13, 2014 6:16:23 GMT -5
It seems that a lot of the younger guys that are rowdy are like that because they play too much video games. Some of them really don't have the same respect a lot of us have for history. Where we study, they play and think the Thompson is amazing because they get lots of kills with it. But, as the WWII video game hype has been kinda gone for the last few years, this is more of a problem in modern airsoft, not so much WWII. I am 16, and I do not play video games. I think they're fun and like to play them at my friends house, but I don't do it too much. I'm not saying that if you play video games you're like this, but many of the kids like this are that way because they play TOO MANY video games. That's just my two cents. Exactly. When I was recruiting for our 502/501st unit, the first questions some people asked were, "can I have a raygun?" I abandoned them there. I don't want people like that in our unit.
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Post by ssgjoe on Mar 13, 2014 9:31:55 GMT -5
Oh gosh. How old were they?
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Post by shiftsup on Mar 13, 2014 10:43:33 GMT -5
brownien, your membership to the Ontario Forum is active now.
In regards to minors at Woodsman, it's pretty "open" when compared to most airsoft games in Canada. More than half of the organized games up here in Ontario are 18+ only with no exceptions. There are a few places that have walk-on / pick up games that are 16+ but for the most part, an all day "milsim" is 18+.
I believe it has more to do with the origins of the hobby in Canada and our laws and general attitudes up here that it does with the notion that minors are by definition immature and reckless.
Also, the core group of wwii airsoft enthusiasts around here are well into adulthood. The likelihood that a majority of these players would attend a 3 day event that had more than a handful of minors attending is unlikely.
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Jerry-ADK
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Post by Jerry-ADK on Mar 13, 2014 11:38:45 GMT -5
I started this thread with full knowledge of the rules regarding minors for this event, sorry guys. I know that a good number of our active players on this forum are minors and want to try playing all kinds of different fields, to maybe get inspiration for their own. This event unfortunatly is adult only, unless under certain circumstance, with permission from the event staff, the participants parent and a citizen of Canada status, you probably can't get in until you are 18+. Just think of the legal implications that crossing the border with someone else's child can bring. Some events are just this way for good reason. Don't take this personal. You will understand soon enough if you don't already. The young players I have I countered here on this forum are top notch, responsible, young people. The kind of that I would fight along side at any meet or event. I have complete confidence in their seriousness about the hobby. So don't worry, there will be plenty of BB's to go around this summer guys.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 13, 2014 19:01:45 GMT -5
I will certainly second that remark. As mentioned earlier, it seems the players attracted to a historical themed airsoft event are leap years ahead of other young people when it comes to courtesy, sound choices and respect. Carry that into the adults and the trend continues. The sportsmanship and sense of community frankly spoils me for regular airsoft and both the nature of play and personnel involved makes Namsofting and WW2 airsoft so much more fun.
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Post by aj czarkowski on Mar 13, 2014 20:32:39 GMT -5
Definitely agree that the sportsmanship and community of this hobby spoils myself as well. To be honest, I have completely lost interest with regular airsoft... historical themed events are very sophisticated in the event itself and the players who attend have excellent sportsmanship and are down to earth.
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