2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on May 12, 2014 11:27:56 GMT -5
A side bar to a discussion about field props side tracked toward what is reasonable vs what is not (in this case barbed wire) and what if anything a Waiver does (or doesn't do). It seems this discussion is a worthwhile one so I am starting one here. Please. Discuss away. Begin by debating what your thoughts are about field expectations about safety. Also if you wish to or have something to contribute, what do you believe about signed waivers?
Some thought starters are FPS restrictions, Boobytraps, Barbed Wire, Fortifications, smoke and pyro, barbed wire, eye protection, teeth protection, field insurance, who should pay for injuries if they occure etc.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on May 12, 2014 12:13:28 GMT -5
Here is my understanding about waivers. They are absolutely worthwhile as they demonstrate an effort and willingness to provide clarity of understanding and full disclosure. They limit a persons ability to say " I didn't know". Notice the word "limit". In no way do they free event sponsors (or participants) from being sued. You can sue anyone for anything. (He gave me a dirty look and it has troubled me emotionally) In some cases a waiver can provide support for a suit. The stated restrictions for FPS were....and his gun was shooting at....". If in the opinion of a court a player or sponsor acts wrecklessly the waiver would mean little. If an unsafe practice or field condition exists that contributes to an injury the waiver will afford little or no protection. Especially if that condition was not stated in the waiver. It is impossible for a waiver to include every contingency. Your best bet is common sense and wise anticipation of possibilities.
I once participated in an event where the defenders had dug shallow holes with collapsing roofs and surgical tubing to represent pungi stake boobytraps. With the surgical tubing they visually looked quite authentic but of course wouldn't penetrate the skin. Clever right? In theory yes but a player running in attack stepped into one of these shallow holes and severely broke his leg. No one had anticipated that eventuality and he claimed that such a design was deliberate and obviously unsafe. Kind of hard to deny.
I am an advocate for authenticity balanced by cautious concern for safety. Every player and certainly event sponsors have to always weigh the balance between the two and anticipate problems before the fact. It is wise to err on the side a caution. I will always have participants at my events sign waivers and in the case of minors inist their parent or guardian sign them. Legally, a minors signature is meanningless. More important than the waivers I do all I can to anticipate dangers and take all reasonable steps to mitigate them. If the field by its nature presents hazards we disclose and establish signed rules to distance the players from them. (A steep bank to be avoided) Poison IVY, a water danger, use of pyro etc.
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Post by Obergefreiter Raimund on May 12, 2014 12:32:29 GMT -5
On the side of caution I feel that waivers are a must. Waivers serve the exact purpose that 2ndbat just stated.
I also feel that for, especially larger events, in excess of 50 persons; that liability insurance is a good purchase to make! It will help protect the field owner who leases or rents the property for the day. In most places, like my volunteer fire company, we will not allow people, groups or organizations to use our facility without liability insurance. You can even purchase this type of insurance for a single event or per event/day.
The insurers will give you discounts for having things like extra water, certified first responders available and etc. Basically, they reduce the liability based on how many precautions you provide.
Furthermore, well established rules about safety equipment, such as eye protection, FPS/Joule limitations or hazards to be aware of, should be extremely explicit and well communicated to all who are going to participate. I would even go so far as to, in some cases, to verify eye protection and FPS/Joule limit requirements.
I also agree with 2ndbat that to error on the side of caution is best but again you need to weight things. For example, we in New York do not require players to wear full sealing eye protection. We do require that it is ballistic rated eye protection. However, we clearly state in our waiver that players are responsible for their own eye protection and that we highly recommend full sealing eye protection.
On the issue of FPS limitations, we here in New York have clearly written FPS/Joule limitations and they are typically posted for any event we do expect for small skirmishes which are usually just friends getting together for trigger time.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on May 12, 2014 16:42:30 GMT -5
In addition to the points above. Insurance will either mandate or provide a discount to the event host if expectations (rules, limitations restrictions etc)are expressed both in writing and verbally at the event. They also like to see concise and well written waivers and a thorough safety briefing that is mandatory for all participants.
Often a property owners in place insurance will protect them without a addendum for an event unless it exceeds a certain number of participants or is considered an especially hazardous event. Motocross, river rafting, hang gliding etc. Unfortunately airsoft is still so new that while insurers know paintball they don't often have a rider in place for airsoft events or try to adapt paintball restrictions to airsoft. (Full face, full seal protection, under 300 FPS, no full auto etc. As we know airsoft is much much safer then paintball but for insurers ignorance is blind.
Waivers are definitely a worthwhile element at our event to protect not just the sponsors and field owners but the participants as well. I attended several events where teeth got broken and usually nothing further comes of it but in one case the injured youths parents pursued the sponsors, the insurance company, the field owner and the individual who fired the shots. The waiver included the possibility of injuries to teeth and the recommendation for use of full face mask or mouth guard and all proceedings stopped. This waiver was signed by the young mans parent and was notarized. (He brought it to the event as required by the sponsor) I am sure that this waiver and the pleadings of the kid to his parents not to mess up his participation in future events is why the problem ceased.
Common sense is what we are talking about here but today common sense should be considered a super power.
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Post by CPL. Mills 2nd Rangers on May 13, 2014 2:09:17 GMT -5
I've gone to fields where the host had insurance and had the same rules that applied to paintball. It was one of the most unfun events I ever attended. Full seal-full face masks, couldn't carry my knife, and the low fps restrictions. I never went back to that field. Even though the field owner made the acceptation to the full face mask it ruined it for me with everyone else with it. Might as well have played paintball.
The whole waiver issue is a sticky situation for field owners and event organizers. I am happy to note that in the 10years of doing this hobby I've never seen anyone get seriously injured. Mostly dehydration/over heating issues.
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Post by Obergefreiter Raimund on May 13, 2014 7:02:52 GMT -5
Indeed Mills!!! The full facemask and full seal googles and etc. are a bit much in my own personal opinion and tend to ruin the mood or emersion of an event. I do however personally like the “full” seal clear shooting glasses with the band that goes around your head so that they don’t accidently fall off your face. Those and the completely clear shooting glasses that Sam introduced to us are both my own personal preference
However I agree with the idea that as a field manager or event host it is wise to recommend safety items like mouth guards, full seal eye protection and etc. but only mandate rated shooting glasses. I like leaving the individual with the option of how well they will protect themselves with fewer restrictions rather than many. Just as long as everything is clearly communicated on the waiver and etc.!
On the topic of FPS/Joule limitations, I do not think anyone has ever had a problem with what we have used for ten years here in New York. Rifles are allowed to shoot 500FPS with 0.20g BB’s as well as heavy machine guns. While SMG’s are allowed to shoot 400FPS with 0.20g BB’s. Support guns are allowed 450FPS with 0.20BBs.
In our sport particularly… I feel that FPS/Joule limits based on weapon type/classification works because most everyone in our sport can tell a Thompson from a BAR or an MP-40 from an STG44.
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Post by ssgjoe on May 13, 2014 11:57:07 GMT -5
Things are worse here in CA. Most fields require full face protection for minors.
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on May 21, 2014 14:47:56 GMT -5
On discussion of full face masks, the only kind that would be acceptable would be the SS Kaltesschutzmaske. Even they are extremely rare, but I love mine, and theyre a unique piece of kit.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on May 24, 2014 11:43:44 GMT -5
I am not sure what that is. Enlighten us as I am sure others are curious as well.
I have used some shaped mesh faces that when detailed (at range) actually look pretty good and provide full face protection and breath, don't fog up and fit fine with most types of headgear. They look rediculous up close depending on your taste and expectations. Much much better then paintball masks which I really hate!
Eye and teeth seem to be the most vital things to protect so the clear goggles and mouth guards work well without tarnishing the impression much. Goggles can be visually toned down by painting the frames tan or flesh toned. Some of us who work in jobs where a face full of welts would be problematic have to take precautions in order to participate hence my full face mesh characters.
500 FPS provided adequate mouth and eye protection is worn should not produce serious wounds but hurt enough to provide respect for the tactical aspect of the hobby.
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Jerry-ADK
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Post by Jerry-ADK on May 24, 2014 21:59:38 GMT -5
When you are saying "mouth guard" you mean like the kind you would use for football?
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on May 25, 2014 10:07:14 GMT -5
Yes. You'll still get a nasty welt on your lip but not lose a tooth. Teeth shot out is very very common. I have seen several dozen over the years including one at an all springer game. There is something about plastic bbs and teeth that don't harmonize well. In two cases the injured players (or their parents) felt the sponsor or the person who hit him should pay for the tooth. Yikes! Really? Very irritating.
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Post by insterburger on May 25, 2014 10:39:17 GMT -5
I got hit in the lip in my first game, but still don't wear a mouth guard, even though I own one and know I should. I tend to gag on them, and they make shouting orders very difficult. It is something I should make an effort to do.
There is a simple solution to liability questions regarding broken teeth: Make the wear of mouthguards mandatory. If players choose not to wear them, they are in violation of the safety policy, which makes it much harder for them to hold anyone else liable.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on May 25, 2014 15:10:54 GMT -5
Yes in fact this kind of approach reduces your insurance cost and is an effective way to self insure. Another way to mitigate tooth injuries that is less distracting is the use of scarves. In the winter events I saw lots of players mask the lower portion of their face as protection against the cold wind but this also reduced the likelihood of injuries by creating a mild buffer.
Fogging however then becomes the challenge.
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on May 25, 2014 15:37:12 GMT -5
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on May 25, 2014 18:02:35 GMT -5
Wow. Thanks lzzah. That looks quite replicable and for airsoft, quite effective.
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on May 25, 2014 18:07:21 GMT -5
Which one? neither are easy to copy AT ALL. Field made masks can be somewhat easy, Im making one out of a helmet cover. but I hope youre not referring the string "veils".
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Post by insterburger on May 25, 2014 21:53:45 GMT -5
As Issah said earlier, the problem with those masks is that they were as rare as hen's teeth in actual combat. I'm not sure they'd be much less distracting than a closer-fitting clear plastic mask. despite their historical provenance.
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on May 25, 2014 22:19:50 GMT -5
The cold weather masks are rare, but I personally love mine- its a forgotten piece of kit. The veils are extremely common, but finding good repros is hard as finding hens teeth- Ive make the only accurate ones I know of available.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on May 26, 2014 13:22:12 GMT -5
Veils were also worn by the british on occassion. A practice dating back to the great war.
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on May 26, 2014 15:12:35 GMT -5
Yes, but theyre nothing like the SS-VT veils AT ALL.
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shiftysgarand
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Post by shiftysgarand on Jun 15, 2014 10:38:09 GMT -5
The problem with that is you can hardly see out of gas masks, and since poison gas was never used in combat in the Second World War(as far as i know) they wouldn't be terribly realistic to see on the battlefield(on faces anyway).
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Jun 16, 2014 10:36:26 GMT -5
Indeed gas masked were quickly discarded by both sides and their containers, bags used to haul other items. Though period correct, their use would be more distracting (appearance wise) then the nearly invisible shooting glasses or beige painted mesh goggles most people wear.
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Sgt_Tom
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Post by Sgt_Tom on Jul 2, 2014 8:53:33 GMT -5
Face masks are annoying however protecting teeth is an issue. My brother got one of his teeth chipped by a bb. Dental work can be expensive.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Jul 2, 2014 15:33:35 GMT -5
Indeed. Lots of upset parents. Chipped teeth are very common in airsoft even with the basic cheap little springers in backyard games and from indoor richochettes.
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Sgt_Tom
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Post by Sgt_Tom on Jul 3, 2014 9:38:39 GMT -5
Indeed. Lots of upset parents. Chipped teeth are very common in airsoft even with the basic cheap little springers in backyard games and from indoor richochettes. Yeah all it took was a $30 shotgun.
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