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Post by Gordak on Dec 9, 2005 21:47:45 GMT -5
we need a list of the effective combat ranges of every small arm used in ww2 for example
m1a1 thompson 55 yards mp40 100 yards Kar 98ks are 800 yards. mg 42 is 1200 yards
etc etc,
someone find this stuff out Thanks! -Gordak
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silencer
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Post by silencer on Dec 10, 2005 2:26:16 GMT -5
I havent been on these forums in a while, but while i checked back i saw this post... heres what a book of mine says
1911-mark1revolver-sten-and greese gun all say effective range as fixed (whatever that means?)
Thompson says 109 yards MP40 109 yards (total range 219 yrds) mp44 875 yards vickers 303 machine gun : 3800 bren:2000 mg42: 2187 MG34:2187
thanks to the book D-Day Normandy Weapons Uniforms Military equipment
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Post by Gordak on Dec 10, 2005 14:17:17 GMT -5
thats for an area target I belive,
I know the mp44 is more like 330 yards.
But thanks for the data, As what we are really looking for is the difference between the weapons, it willl contribute to our calculations. Thanks! Keep em comming guys! -Gordak
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Post by 2nd bat on Dec 10, 2005 15:53:14 GMT -5
I wrote R Lee Ermie and posed the question. Who knows maybe it'll get on Mail Call with good footage and a melon or two shot up!
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Russian
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Post by Russian on Dec 10, 2005 15:55:37 GMT -5
What is this for, just wondering? You say you need it for "calculations"...why?
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Post by gunfreak on Dec 10, 2005 16:57:25 GMT -5
my guess to make a standard for how much a gun should be upgraded. to fitt inn to real life.
like the thompson should have a shorter range then a Garand or k98...
this will fore the user's of the auto's to get in closer.. and give low cap weapons with low ROF a better chanse.
we just had a practise game in the wood's just some days ago.
were we had very strikt rules. they where something like this: M1A1's with 30(68)round mags could just have 30 rounds. those with 20(80) short mags only got 20.
we where only 12 guys(7 with ca. ww2 kit) on the german side there were some Marushin K98 and some Tanaka, and one MP40(it actuly worked) and one mp5 as a mp40. agein the auto's where only alawod 30 rounds. the k89's got ut use 5 rounds.
and the Carbine's altså got 13-15 round's
I let some guy barow my Carbine, and I had the Garand(as it's winter and just abow frising it didn't work that well, only about 3 clips on a full tank.) but i playd the role as CO and i mostly went around looking macho with my .45 and got sevral kill's with it and 2 with the Garand..
it was great fun, even tho we paly with low caps in modern games there is a big differens in 70+ and 20 rounds. and every now and then you would hear some Fu**'s(yes we use that word here in norway to, alot actuly even on tv with out it being biiipt,) from the guys when the forgot that they only had 20-30 rounds.
i recomend you just tri it one when you arn't that many, all the guys i played with sead it was geat, you realy needed to lure you're enemy in a trap as you, and you could actuly keep pressure on a guy and force him to reload and take him out them..
ooh almost forgot the first Shoei Mg42(that i know of) in norway was out and played.. we had a copel of take the MG possision great fun. and when every one only have 5-30 round mag's a 250 round mg do's alot damige
PS. sorry about the spelling, the spell check didn't seem to work today..
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Post by CPL. Mills 2nd Rangers on Dec 10, 2005 17:53:28 GMT -5
I'm wouldnt be so stricked with the ammo in the clip, cause, some people,(me) dont have extra clips for my thompson, so, I would have to reload every 5 minutes in the field, not practical, so Fill the clips to capacity I say.
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Post by 2nd Bat on Dec 10, 2005 19:09:06 GMT -5
I am so all over the idea and am doing everything I can to promote the concept locally. A few spare low cap magazines won't break the bank and will add so much to the realism. Every time folks go with the idea and agree to the concept in a group and execute it they always rave that it was the best day of airsoft they ever did!
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Post by Gordak on Dec 10, 2005 20:04:57 GMT -5
Just so you guys know, Ive been working on Rules for about 3 years now LOL.
Ill post my Ideas soon, and we will all Debate, and and subtract from it and come up with an official WW2AA ruleset. -Gordak
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Post by mikkel on Dec 10, 2005 20:07:15 GMT -5
If you are going to require realistic ranges for the guns, are you also going to get realistic ROF? No bigger turnoff, than a 1500rpm MP40 or a 600rpm MG42
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Post by Gordak on Dec 10, 2005 20:09:23 GMT -5
Yes, battery voltage is in the rules too -Gordak
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Post by phantom12321 on Dec 10, 2005 21:36:46 GMT -5
yeah to get the 1:1 distance with the real steel I am pretty sure the words "deadly force" fits in there somewhere so you just want to get them proportional. That way lets say every real Garand fires at an effective range of 1000yrds and every real MP40 fires 500 yds then every AS Garand would fire 500yrds so every MP40 would fire 250 yds. I think right?
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Post by gunfreak on Dec 11, 2005 6:08:47 GMT -5
I'm wouldn't be so stricked with the ammo in the clip, cause, some people,(me) dont have extra clips for my thompson, so, I would have to reload every 5 minutes in the field, not practical, so Fill the clips to capacity I say. ok, over here every one have like 7-16 lowcaps. (as many they can fit in there tac vest) I have 12 M16 lowcaps 9 Mp5. 5 15rd mags for my WA 1911(damn those are expensive) only 4 for my Carbine(3 are leaking ) 11 clip for the Garand. 4 for my G3 2 for my glock only 1 for my SIG P226 and one for my m11. i think that's about it. AEG lowcaps don't cost that much, but the gas mag's are just crazy, $45-50 for WA and Carbine mags..
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Post by CPL. Mills 2nd Rangers on Dec 11, 2005 8:04:58 GMT -5
Yea I know low caps are cheap, but, wait, I'll just pull some out of my A ss to pay for them, some people, like the younger people that play, dont have alot of money, just buying the gun will brake the bank.
Up untill Now, I had a crapy low paying job, Now, I have a good paying job, and will be able to buy more, but like I said, some people, have low paying jobs, and its easier for them to buy 1 hicap, that will last the whole game, VS, 1-2 standards, that they will be forced to reload in the middle of a battle.
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Post by gunfreak on Dec 11, 2005 9:14:56 GMT -5
yes of couse, and in the US there is a norm to use high caps, and yes they are cheap.. and the standard of living over here is just crazy, even 16 year olds have like $700 to use on airsoft, i'm 20 and have å realy bad job(renta cop) and I have 3-5 gaming consoles, airsoft for like $3000, 200 dvd's and soon a new PC for like $2000.. and so on, (end of braging) so another $100 on lowcaps dosn't really mater over here.
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Russian
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Post by Russian on Dec 11, 2005 13:23:03 GMT -5
And how does one become a citizen of paradise? I think I am moving!
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Post by gunfreak on Dec 11, 2005 13:33:01 GMT -5
dos'nt take much, we seem to be letting every one in(damn you sweds)
but you have to be willig to pay tax on everything.
gas price. ca. $10 a gallon.. and we are not talking 3 day waiting period for a gun, we are talking 6-9 months.. and that's if you even get permision to get it.. as you have to prov to the goverment that you truly need it, and for protecion is not an option, only for hunting and for compitionison(wanting to just shot for recriation is not a valid reason, you need to be a competetiv shoter) and don't even try to buy a nother gun in the same calibre,
no move to canada, that's what i'm gonna do, it's just as good as scadinavia, but with out the extrem rules on guns, porn and booze..
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Post by mikkel on Dec 11, 2005 13:52:57 GMT -5
You stole OUR bloody oil!! Give it back, WE want the money!! Norway is the most expensive country in the world to live in, Denmark being number 2. Its really nice, because you can go on a vacation anywhere, and still thinks its really cheap! Before you move to canada, have a look at their gun laws
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Post by gunfreak on Dec 11, 2005 15:44:07 GMT -5
I've checked not as liberal as the US but at least you can have to 1911's without being looked at as a crazy "gunfreak" that planes a bank job..
PS. you stole Greenland from us, granted it's just ice, and Eskimos, but it's would still be nice to claim the biggest island in the world
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Post by mikkel on Dec 12, 2005 9:47:52 GMT -5
By all means please DO take Greenland! All we ever got from that was immigrants sitting around our capital, being so drunk you can't ever imagine.
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silencer
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Post by silencer on Dec 13, 2005 15:31:45 GMT -5
I think y'all (i say you cause i probably wont be able to make it to ur games for a couple years) should use low caps because seeing a thompson fire long burst's just doesn't seem right. How many people have seen a real thompson fire out 200 rounds? Also, standards only cost half as much as high caps? So for every 2 high caps you could get 4 standards, thats well on the way already. However, where do you guys get standard mags for the thompson? I can't seem to find any in the usa.
A little more on topic, what are the ranges or accuracy you guys want? Like, how far the bullet travels before it goes off track?
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Post by fallout on Dec 15, 2005 13:23:04 GMT -5
Practical effective ranges (the range at which you could reasonably expect to hit a target with the weapon) are much shorter than actual ballistic maximum ranges (i.e. how far the bullet will travel). You haven't got a snowballs chance in you-know-where of actually hitting a man sized target at 100 yards with a Thompson SMG, despite listed book values. 60 meters is a pretty good estimate of the practical effective engagement range for a M1A1.
Practical effective ranges also depend heavily on the weapon platform itself, rather than the cartridge. Example: A BAR has a greater practical effective range than a Garand, despite using the same cartridge, as the BAR was designed as a squad support weapon, was heavier and more solidly built (receiver machined out of a solid block of steel), had a more robust barrel designed for higher rates of fire, a larger ammo capacity, full auto capability that allowing for walking the rounds to the target, and was often equipped with a bipod for stability.
In addition, the round must still have enough energy to matter at the that range (a problem for the M1 carbine, for instance).
Most small arms casualties in ww2 occured at ranges of less than 100 yards. This fact was not lost on weapon designers after the war.
Of course, if all things are equal, then a comparison of listed ranges becomes useful in that you can lump similar weapons into similar categories/max fps/min engagement ranges.
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Post by 2nd Bat on Dec 19, 2005 20:15:40 GMT -5
I have often wondered what a reasonable agreed upon quantity of rounds would be for a single magazine capacity. Most low caps are 60 to 70 rounds which is more then double what the real steel was. A Tanaka Kar 98 hold 10 rounds rather then five in its clip. When I designed my AEG Garand the plan was to go between double and three times the actual amount 16-24 rounds per clip. Because they're so hard to make I've increased that amount but in a perfect world would like to see everyone between 2 and 3 times the actual capacity. It somewhat makes up for the effect of thin concealment acting as cover while still requiring frequent reloading. I believe an effort to move toward double the capacity would be the way to go.
The sponsor of an event could purchase extra low caps and have them available for use at the event and have them paid for out of the enrollement fee. That's what we did locally and it seemed to work well.
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Russian
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Post by Russian on Dec 19, 2005 21:19:34 GMT -5
I think if your weapon utilizes 8mm bbs, it should be the actual amountage of rounds as the real steel, but if it uses 6mm bbs, it should have double the amount as the real clips used. My two cents.
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Post by spitfire740 on Dec 19, 2005 22:31:37 GMT -5
not double, but at least more than the 8mm BB's.
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silencer
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Post by silencer on Dec 19, 2005 22:40:58 GMT -5
the most realistic approach would be using the realsteals amount. But money makes that hard.
Id say fill up the low caps as much as they go and for high caps just fill them up as much as the low caps. then for guns like the m1garand and k98 fill them up to the real steal capacity, I don't really like the idea of changing it due to the size of the bb's
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Post by Gordak on Dec 20, 2005 13:23:49 GMT -5
trust me, take it From a Guy who has been airsofting since 1995, real steal ammo capacities do not transfer 1/1 from to bbs.
It takes a hell of alot more bbs to hit something than it does with real rounds. if we went 1 for 1. We woudl run out of ammunition afet abotu 1 minute of airsoft combat. -Gordak
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Post by 2nd bat on Dec 20, 2005 16:45:20 GMT -5
Even as the purest, I try to be, 1 / 1 does not translate into either practical play or a movement toward authenticity. (Airsoft brush penetration just doesn't cut it.) My gut instinct continues to be 2 to 1 or 3 to 1 for capacity. Actually you'll find that with reduced ammo loads people select their shots and exercise far more fire discipline.
I still conduct recon by fire and suppression fire to support team mates movement, but do so judiciously and with purpose. This is realistic and adds to the game. In Vietnam a combat load was (at most) 600 rounds. (I carried 600 5.56 magazined rounds on one mission and 200 belted rounds of 7.62 but usually carried less.) The NVA carried three loaded AK mags generally and occassionally four (90 to 120 rounds loaded) It took very little time for ammo to be a real issue for the US and especially the enemy. One of the reasons they quickly "melted away" was to avoid air attack but usually it was because they were out of ammo. A point lost to historians it seems. The VC had way less ammo (perhaps 100 rounds)
In WW2 a firefight quickly went to a consolidation phase due to rapid expenditure of ammo. This is how it was based on several veteran interviews. So to replicate this, ammo restrictions in WW2 airsoft and Vietnam airsoft should be carefully thought out.
I'd love to load the spray and pray hi cap dudes with a comparable load of bricks to replicate their 2000 rounds of ammo just to see how quickly they'd change their minds to authentic loads.
Restriction of ammo is the first step toward authenticity in airsoft and results in so much positive play and team work that I can't begin to list it. In the recent WW2 game here in the NW I was greatly restricted by the length and weight of the Garand AEG (especially when working my way through the tough terrain) but wouldn't want it any other way. My firepower should reward this restriction over a guy with say a Thompson.
Several of the normal modern airsofters commented how hard it was to relaod compared to their usual "tactical tailor" high speed modern velcro gear but mentioned that it actually added a lot to the game play. Way more movement and team work required. The ability to come up on somone and capture them etc.
All the times when you would have had a clear shot but were reloading. Frustrating but at the same time very cool. Airsoft is about choices, communication, timing and team work. Frequent reloading and ammo restrictions lends itself to that very, very well. Even my thoroughly modern son agreed it was a great change of pace.
This is of course all just my perspective but it's nice to be able to pontificate for others of like or desenting opinion. It would be nice to have (at some point down the road) Finalized standards for reeanctment airsoft events.
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