German HBT Dilemma

[Dracul]

Facing a dilemma here... 

So, I ordered some HBT material from At The Front, to start making my own tunics for loaner kits. I have an E German tunic taken apart, ready to draft a pattern off of it, and I then I ordered in an HBT tunic in to use as a model. 

This is where the project hit a 5 foot thick, brick wall... Not only is the HBT tunic's HBT is much lighter weight, its also a completely different shade of green, than the light-canvas weight and dark green color of the At the Front's HBT. 

With Flash: 


Without flash:


I understand that there isn't an exact shade of the uniform materials of German uniforms (same goes for everyone else, really), but ATF's HBT doesn't feel like its meant for uniforms at all. It isn't anywhere near grey and can't even be mistaken for it. I would use this material to make generic pouches out of, or in this case, bread bags. 

Adding to this dilemma, this the same shade of green that Hessen Antique advertises as DAK fabric: www.hessenantique.com/German_DAK_Olive_Fabric_by_the_Yard_p/fyg001.htm

If anything, the modern day "Ranger/Foliage Green" is closer to the HBT tunic's color. 



So, this where I need advice. Should I try to make a tunic out of ATF's HBT? Should I used ATF's HBT to make more bread bags and then search out more "color correct" fabric in like a heavy cotton or a modern tactical fabric (without those ripstop grid patterns of course) out there? 

[LϟϟAH1944]

ATF's is correct, the hiki is not. the dark green is correct. Ende.

[2nd Bat]

Problem solved! that's great news. Like any field uniform exposed to the elements. Over time the final shade and appearance is going to vary greatly. When issued fatigues in Vietnam the cotton sateen fatigues were a very dark dark olive drab but very quickly these turned to a very light shade of green. You could usually spot the seasoned veterans from the cherries by the shade of their uniforms (although this was by no means consistent). On long field operations replacement uniforms (generally not new) were flown in as the uniforms you left with often nearly rotted off in 10 to 14 days.

The expression "Green troops" probably came from the bright shade of their uniforms relative to the soldiers in the unit they joined. I am sure that was true of the German HBT uniform. The HIKI shop shade probably looks right for a long fielded set. Where the ATF is probably closer to an "as issued" shade.

[insterburger]

Interesting stuff 2nd Bat, straight from the mouth (or I guess keyboard) of someone who was there.

Now you have me wondering about the origin of the term "green troops." A quick web search says "green" was first used in that meaning, of "raw or inexperienced," as early as 1548 (!), probably related to agrarian culture, either connected to "green" or not-yet-ripe fruit, or possibly connected to the similar "greenhorn" for a very young ox, which first shows up related directly to soldiers around 1650. Still, it does apply incredibly well to the uniform situation in Vietnam.

[LϟϟAH1944]

Honestly...not really. HBT doesn't fade to a lighter shade like that. simple answer is hikishop's is just flat out wrong, or "uncommon" to say the least.

[2nd Bat]

Great research Insterberger. Very hard for me to believe that ANY fabric would not fade noticeably when exposed to the elements but I am going to go with LZZAH on this as my knowledge on German uniform details is very very limited. Nice to know regardless that you canuse the fabric you bought with confidence.

Incidently how common (or uncommon) was the HBT vs wool tunics? In black and white pictures I am not perceptive enough to spot which is which. I've got to believe that in Summer the HBT would be far more comfortable and easier to take care of?

[LϟϟAH1944]

woolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolHBTwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolwoolHBT......that about sums it up pretty well.

[insterburger]

Actually, if you look at images of surviving original HBT tunics, there is quite a mix of shades apparent. Many are very dark as the ATF material, but a significant number are quite light and very close to the Hikishop shade. It's worth noting, however, that this is 70 years on, so they may have had considerable opportunity to fade since use, and pretty much every last example I've seen that is light has an extreme "rode hard and put away wet" quality completely missing on the spiffy new Hikishop pieces. On the other hand, pictures of German prisoners in HBT show significant variation in tone as well, even during the war. I would not go so far as to say the Hikishop shade is absolutely wrong, but to make it right the tunic should have considerable additional weathering applied to appear well-worn and combat-used. Doing so without further lightening the tone (or otherwise ruining the tunic) could be problematic, but should be possible.

To elaborate a bit on Graham's answer about how common HBT was, wool was indeed the standard material for German infantry and would be the most typically seen. That notwithstanding, apparently when HBT was issued, it tended to be issued en masse to entire units, with preference given to front-line combat units. Which would mean that ratio-wise it would not be quite so uncommon to see it worn by the guys doing the actual shooting (i.e. the guys we portray), and in units where it was used, it should be commonly used. By way of saying, wool is the most correct and most common, but once a re-enacting unit starts in on it, the more the merrier, and it should not be considered "wrong" by any means.

BTW, from photographs I have of a PK-Zug, apparently even rear-echelon units commonly wore HBT in hot weather, but in this context I have typically seen the HBT "drillich" tunics with no pockets and no insignia, although these are seen up to the end of the last summer of the war. I do have one frame that MIGHT show a rear-echelon soldier in an HBT tunic with pockets, but it's hard to tell.

[volkssturm]

I had the same experience as 2d Bat back in my misspent youth, though I came in just a bit to late to cross the pond. Our cotton fabric fatigue uniforms went pretty quickly from a fairly dark green to faded green. It was really apparent when my IOBC class started who were the new kids and who had been in a while.

[ssgjoe]

Research your unit if you're portraying a unit. That's the best way to figure out what material to wear. When in doubt, or if you're SS, wear wools. If you're wearing HBTs, don't bling it up. Te less insignia the better

[ssgjoe]

And for those starting out and getting your first tunic, get a wool tunic first, HBT tunic next. You can't accurately wear HBTs in winter, but you can accurately wear wools in summer.

[insterburger]

Good advice, Joe. As our unit (Heeresgruppe Nord-Ost) doesn't portray a specific unit but tries to be a typical formation that can be adapted to specific situations, I think in warm weather we would base use of HBT on the specific scenario and what type of unit our guys are portraying-- basically what you are advocating, but doing it on a game-by-game basis.

That said, when we do have guys in HBT, we should try to have as many players in possible follow suit. I've seen many pics showing a mix of guys in wools and HBT, but it always seems like there isn't just the one guy, where there is one there is much.

Another thing, I think one look that tends to be under-represented is wool trousers and HBT tunic. It seems from my sampling like this is as or more common in period photographs than full HBT sets, but relatively few guys do this impression from what I see. I guess they figure it's a few bucks more to get the pants too, and once you have, why not wear them, especially since the idea is to be cooler in hot weather and the pants help with that.

[aldrich]

A while back I found a book that went into the history of a German infantry division stationed in Normandy. I cannot remember which one. But before the invasion, it remarked how poorly equipped the division was and how officers had to scrounge for any warm weather equipment they could find. From the book, it stated that they managed to get a mixture of mostly drillich uniforms, some HBT's, and a very small handful of surplus DAK uniforms. Since before D-day the German high command saw Normandy as a low priority area, shortages are pretty common for Heer units stationed there.

[2nd Bat]

Often we who replicate obsess on the effort to be "perfect" and in the process fail to get it "right". Automotive restoration shops often restore and finish to a level that exceeds the fit and finish that was produced. Military vehicles have very precise insignia painted on with perfect alignment when in fact unit markers were usually applied as extra duty to generally hung over troops whose work was usually pretty sloppy.

For uniforms (based on lots of pictures) shades and even types of material often didn't match even when worn by the same soldier. Camo patterns on helmets might be different than those on the smock. This lack of uniformity and precision was more common for frontline troops where their focus was more on survivl than IG inspections.
For US Soldiers who prided themselves on their independent thinking a little bit of indifference or out right defiance was quite common.

I love impressions with the "been there, done that" look. The tears, mud and fading tells a story in and of themselves along with dirty faces and worn boots. Too often we want to provide a parade ground look of spit and polish and as pointed out, since WW2 Airsoft is about the pointy end of the spear we should strive to look the part.

My loaner uniforms are tattered and faded and certainly aren't sent to the dry cleaner after every outing. My German stuff frankly looks too new as I just started going that route. hopefully that will quickly change with use.

[Dracul]

Thanks for all the input, but remember, the ones I'm making will be for loaner kits. I won't just be making one, I'll be making enough to supply the last of my loaner kits, and anymore that I'll need down the road.

One topic of authenticity. These won't be perfect, they will look good, but not stitch Nazi level. However, the facts of issuing these en masse and I have plenty of grey wool pants (post war stuff) to go along with them, will make them look better on a higher scale. Unfortunately, the loaner kits aren't a specific unit that I had in mind, but I guess I can do the reverse to what SSGJoe says. Gather uniforms and equipment, and then select a unit.

Well, thats at least my vision....

[insterburger]

Here are a couple of shots from a PK-Zug of a Propaganda Kompanie, taken in Romania in late summer 1944, just as things were collapsing there for the Germans. Definitely NOT front line combat troops. Apologies for the obscured faces, this is in deference to the guy who I got these from, who is the same guy who took them in '44. These images have been seen by NO ONE in the last 70+ years, this is their first publication anywhere, FWIW.

First up: HBT "Drillich" tunic with a wool overseas cap. Note the apparent total lack of any sort of insignia:


Next, an acting sergeant in what looks like an HBT tunic with pockets... the nap and fold of the fabric definitely looks different from the obviously wool pants. Especially around the folds in the sleeve, this fabric appears to me to be HBT, but I'd love opinions. Notice the apparent lack of any insignia other than the shoulder boards-- no Reichsadler, no Litzen, no tresse. (I believe the individual pictured was allowed to wear sergeant's rank and got sergeant's pay despite not being officially promoted... until a higher-up noticed what was going on and put a stop to it).

[aldrich]

Dracul, if you are looking for good summer items to make for impressions, the "drillich" uniform could be a good way to go. They were made out of the same HBT material. Plus the pattern is much simpler and would take up less fabric so you would get more bang for your buck. That, and you wouldn't need to get any insignia either. As others have said, they weren't all to uncommon, and as a work uniform they were more widely issued than the HBT. Just a thought.

[insterburger]

+1 on what Aldrich says. Drillich uniforms were ubiquitous in the Wehrmacht, are good for any unit at all, and will save you greatly on time and materials. Quite often HBT field uniforms didn't have insignia either, but Drillich almost never did, plus as Aldrich says, way less fabric and less work. Also don't forget there are no shoulder devices either in addition to no pockets [edit: no pocket flaps is what I meant, these do have open hip pockets], so in all you are using about half the buttons from a standard HBT combat tunic. And 100% authentic. I totally agree Drillich is the way to go here.

[ssgjoe]

The worn look is the best look, however get the worn look with proper equipment. For newer guys and loaner kits, slack can be cut. However, strive to be as accurate as possible, and have your ultimate goal be a 100% accurate kit.

[Dracul]

Well, no pockets means no longer making patterns for these odd, tear drop shaped pockets. Which is what I'm currently working on.... I really like where this is going.

This sounds really great and all, but when I search for Drillich uniforms on google, I'm getting full HBT M40's and such. That or what you guys described as a Drillich uniform, but in a plain white color with two open pockets (no closing flap or button).

I hate to second question the obvious experts here, but were the Drillich uniforms made in green, like the HBT material I got? I just want to be sure.

[insterburger]

Thanks for asking, Drac. Short answer: Yes, they were.

Before the war, they had been in an off-white, undyed color (what you are seeing). Later on, soldiers started to recognize their value as summer tunics and began using them thusly, but obviously the white color was a problem. I have heard some soldiers field-dyed the early tunics, which may or may not be true, but definitely the Wehrmacht started issuing the Drillich work tunics in green relatively early in the war, first and foremost still as a work uniform, but they began to be used for warm-weather combat duty. It was only later that a dedicated combat tunic with pockets and all was issued in HBT, and that generally only to combat units (though from the second pic I posted above, perhaps not exclusively).

Look at the first pic I posted: That is what you are after. It is a green Drillich work uniform, in HBT, no insignia, simple open patch pockets at the hip only (no buttons). Hessen Antique sells them here.

[insterburger]

BTW, I'd love opinions: Does that second pic look like an HBT tunic w/wool trousers? It does to me, but more eyes on it would be helpful.

[ssgjoe]

Hmm..the tunic looks wool to me. However I could be wrong

[Dracul]

This bodes extremely well. Not only can I make accurate looking tunics, but have them be correct for most of the war and not get pinned down by the specific unit thing. All my kits can be plain Wehrmacht riflemen and be able to change "units" depending on the game's scenario.

Thank you!

[insterburger]

Thanks, Joe. The jury is out with me, too. It's hard to tell, I have it high res, but the grain on the photo is bigger than the HBT pattern would be. What makes me think maybe HBT is the way the sleeve folds-- looks too thin and maleable to be thick wool, and the heavy nap clearly visible on the pants does not seem to be present. If it is wool, it would be well-worn, and it looks quite different to the pants in that light. Wool would make more sense for the unit, but it just doesn't look right to me. More opinions would be welcome!

[aldrich]

No problem! As for the photo, I would say HBT due to the "dimples" that have formed around the stitching as well as the folds.

[ssgjoe]

I say it's a worn and very salty wool tunic. If you look at the pockets, the tunic has been through a lot of crap. I would think that with how much use it went through, if it was HBT, it would have more wrinkles (wrinkles, not folds) than there are present.

[ssgjoe]

If you look at the cuff, it appears that the tunic has a little nap to it too

[ssgjoe]

And dracul, my suggestion would be to make both the two pocket drillich uniforms, and the four pocket. I haven't seen many photos where a lot of guys are wearing drillich a in combat. Rarely do I see even a couple guys in a photo both wearing drillich.

[insterburger]

On the photo, another thing that has me leaning toward HBT is that there do not seem to be any Litzen or Reichsadler. Highly unusual for wool, par for the course for HBT.

As far as Drac's tunics, Joe is right that there is usually a lower incidence of Drillich, but another thing to keep in mind is that these are loaner tunics, so they would be parcelled out as part of a larger force, one that is unlikely to have too many guys in Drillich. Might be fun for him to try both if that's where he wants to go, and having both woouldn't hurt, but if between the PITA factor and materials he just does Drillich tunics, I think he's alright with that too.