M44 Uniform

[neoptolemus]

I have always like the shorter cut of the M44 tunic, but since it is constructed from wool, what would the maximum temperature be that I could be expected to play a game in? Has any one had experience with wearing this cut of uniform during a game? As I mentioned earlier, heat is an issue for me and even though an HBT Reed uniform would probably be best, I prefer the look the M44. Any help is greatly appreciated.

[mauser98k]

The M44 was used in such small numbers I wouldn't even consider it.

[neoptolemus]

Considering it was supposed to be issued to every single unit Waffen SS or WH, I think it saw some relatively decent numbers of issue. Someone posted some hard numbers on the Axis History Forum and so I will try to pull them off there later today. And then again, that doesn't really answer my question to whether or not it's suitable to a temperate environment.

[5thrangerinfantry]

All wool is suitable to a temperate environment - depending on the season of course. It would help to know where you are?

Also, the Axis HIstory Forum is where I got the impression that they were issued in very small numbers - 'manufacture' numbers and 'issue' numbers are to different worlds all together, and it would limit you to only very late war scenario.....If I may make a suggestion, the assault gun wrap or even the panzer wrap also have a great cut off look to them and would allow you more freedom to attend different time frame events.....

[Capt. Zak]

Your tolerance for heat will determine if you use a wool tunic. You can always leave the field shirt off and just wear the tunic. Wool actually "breathes", so you do get some ventilation when you wear it. You will be warm/hot running around though if it's too hot and/or humid.

Most M44 usage was done so by units defending Berlin. By the time this uniform was introduced and manufactured Germany's supply chain was pretty much kaput. So supplies didn't go very far. Staying alive was more important that getting that new, cool looking uniform. LOL

Concider this. At the Rockford '06 reenactment I was speaking to a German vet and he asked a guy wearing an M44 tunic what country he was portaying. The guy replied Germany and the vet said "I never saw that German uniform." Just something to concider. He also commented on the overuse of camo. He said he never saw SS camo and was issued a Splinter A zelt. Again...just let that slosh around in your melon.

[Gordak]

m44 tunics did exist and were made in large numbers, it was just very late in the war.

Guy Sajer (Forgotten soldeir) recalls when they were issued, he said the soldiers who wore them looked like golfers (apparantly it looks like a german golf jacket)
The VAST majority of originals Ive seen, were never issued. There is also an m45 tunic that is even simpler.
I used to reenact in M44 tunics
Heat wise they are the same as the m36-m43 uniforms

-Gordak

[neoptolemus]

Thanks for the help, I am quite sure that an M44 uniform would be adequate for my needs, as I am simply trying to put a uniform together for a late war soldier of the Heer. I have heard of the M45 (Leibermuster jackets were apparently made in this cut correct?) but I have also heard that this pattern of Tunic was inconsitent and so not necessarily a standardized uniform.

Someone earlier mentioned using panzer wrapper. Since this would be a lighter material, was there any accounts of soldiers taking one perhaps for the advantages a tighter uniform conferred in urban combat? Mind you, I am not a reenactor and will not be with my equipment. I merely want an interesting airsoft load out.

[Gordak]

panzer wraps are not practical uniforms just so u know, It was an attempt by the germans to make a modern equivilant of the calvary uniforms of old. They ended up with a very unique looking uniform.

[indy]

Wool breathes. I have worn wool here in AZ in 100 + degrees. It's fine for the most part, if it's windy it is even better.

[indy]

neoptolemus said:

Since this would be a lighter material, was there any accounts of soldiers taking one perhaps for the advantages a tighter uniform conferred in urban combat? Mind you, I am not a reenactor and will not be with my equipment. I merely want an interesting airsoft load out.

Do not use a panzer wrap...it was limited to certain types of units...it was not an infantry issue jacket.
As far as the tunic goes, the gemmans did NOT distinguish between the m36-m43, however I'm sure all took notice at the radically different M44....so choose between those. For late war I reommend the M43 and M44. To answer the quoted question, lighter material does not mean tighter fit. All German tunics were tightly fit.

[neoptolemus]

By "fit better", I meant that since it is designed for armored vehicle crews, it eliminates any cloth which might become caught as the crewman moves throughout his vehicle.

(since the link was dead, I have replaced it with a won depicting a 1/6 figure representing one of the soldiers who was illustrated on the box. this is also a Dragon release)

www.dragonmodelsltd.com/html/70139-u-2.htm

This illustration by Ron Volstad shows Panzer Lehr troopers in what looks like a panzer wrap. I am unfamiliar with the uniform in the drawing, so maybe someone more well informed can indicate what they are wearing. If the picture is too small, I can scan my own copy of the box and post it later (although I have no idea how accurate the image is, Dragon does a substantial amount of research for their releases, at least the newer ones).

Thanks for the good feedback Indy. If you can stand wool in Arizona weather, I am sure I can feel fine in an M44 here in Illinois. The reason picked the M44 was on account of another figure set which Dragon just released, part of their Gen 2 line.

www.dragonmodelsltd.com/catalog/dml/new/6278/6278poster-s.jpg

My whole intention in gathering the items I have were to assemble a unique kit with the most accuracy and the lowest price. I don't need a reenactor grade uniform, but my own tendencies towards accuracy won't let me make ridiculous errors in presentation.

[neoptolemus]

I saw the post on STUG wraps and so I think that answers the question about Panzer Lehr.

[Ungar]

I played at least one game in 35 Celsius with my Luftwaffe Wool Uniform.
No Problems for me. Just make sure you got your canteen.

Here's some M44/M45 period pics


M45 SS-Leibermuster (dream to obtain post war one)

[neoptolemus]

Thanks a lot for the photos! The leibermuster one is a personal favorite and it's nice to see the M45 jacket in use. I plan on using a pair of Alpenflage pants as a poor man's substitute for the Leibermuster until some Chinese company decides to make reproductions of it. BTW, maybe you just made a typo, but Leibermuster was intended as a camouflage for both WH and SS. As I recall, both Foreign SS and the 101 Jaeger abt. were issued limited numbers of this camouflage.

[Ungar]

Yes I think I was wrong about the "SS" prefix.

The closest you can get to Leibermuster is the odd Czech camo which was used in late 40's and in the 50's.

I have not seen any on auction yet.(orig or postwar czech)

[neoptolemus]

The coloration on that is superior, but the pattern is not. It appears more like the Russian amoeba, but on a much smaller scale. Even the shape of the suit appears reminiscent of the Amoeba Russian Scout Suit so I don't think anything beyond the coloration was borrowed. I think it was just an attempt to get a non Russian scheme into service by borrowing what was deemed as effective; many eastern bloc countries adopted German based camouflage schemes (like Bulgaria) so there military didn't seem necessarily like a clone of the Russian (even though their weapons were at best produced under license). I have heard actually the best way to mimic the scheme (since all the surviving examples are REALLY faded since they were used by prisoners of war for extended periods or left in workshops to decay) is to touch up Alpenflage by reducing the red parts. I think this wouldn't be that difficult with my airbrush and some acrylic paint designed for cloth. What's more, since Swiss pants are only 8 bucks a pop, it would be fairly cheap to refine the technique. However, I am not entirely sure if the Swiss pants would resemble in anyway the late war German issue pants.

[mikkel]

The leibermuster is a bad idea to use. There exist only one or two pictures of it being used. It also limits the games to april/may 1945 Berlin scenarios

[neoptolemus]

That is the period I study most, and so a late war uniform from Seelow Heights is actually most desirable. I understand that its use was limited, I know a good deal about the camouflage (as I listed the units it was issued to as known) so I know when it was used....

[Ungar]

I agree with you neoptolemus.

At an airsoft game I've seen swiss camo and the pattern resembled a lot like Leibermuster.
The red colour throws it off though. But that can be fixed somehow.

But I would only try to atempt to make a M45 if I would have a STG 44 with Sperber equipment.
I was thinking of this whole thing for a while know, but I can't really afford it.

It is just stunning how advanced the German technology was.
In fact I think that today if an army was equiped with late war German equipment they could fight an even battle with any of todays lesser military powers.

[neoptolemus]

Don't get me started on German IR ;D That is a topic of serious interest, especially the Infrared Solutions for armored vehicles like Sdkfz. 251/20 Uhu (IR searchlight) and the IR equipped panthers. If I could in someway produce a dummy IR setup for an STG-44 (assuming the Chinese eventually release an inexpensive version), I would use it in daylight! I don't think I want to wear solely leibermuster though as my grandfather said when he was in Berlin, he only saw one foreign SS wearing a pair of pants similar to the pattern I showed him (color picture of the leibermuster print). Even though this sort of first hand account is vague, it's enough for me to pursue an impression based on some of his accounts of the uniform used at that time in some of the units he was around (He was an impressed Lithuanian laborer who was pulled into a scratch combination unit by an NCO).

[Ungar]

I really envy you Neoptolemus.

Good to see people interested in late war German technology.
Although I am NO expert but read some books; I heard the Germans had considerable succes with the IR in Frulicherswachen, in Hungary 1945. Fascinating really.

Also my grandfather fought in Germany 1945.
He was Hungarian volunteer of some sort.
He remembered the mighty KonigsTiger

couldn't resist posting

[neoptolemus]

I haven't read any books on the topic myself (IR that is), just done considerable net research for modelling the Panther Ausf. G you posted in that photograph yourself. I never heard of Frulicherswachen, but if you could suggest a book that has information on it, that would be great. Right now I am reading a great book titled "The Siege of Budapest", but it is the first thing I have ever seen exclusively about Hungary in a book store.

For further information on IR, apparently "Germany's Panther Tank the Quest for Combat Supremacy" is the ultimate source for variants (like the A and B solution panthers as well as the Panther II and F). I definitely intend to get the book at some point because it should shed some light on the matter.

In regards to my grandfather as a primary source, his stories are very interesting to listen to (being a combination of the heights and depths of humanity) although difficult to analyze. He seems to have little bias against Germans, even though he was a prisoner, since he hated the Soviets much more. Also, asking specific questions regarding equipment is difficult. Not only was he not looking to see whether his companions were carrying Panzerfaust 60M's or 100M's, there were also a plethora of foreign and German equipment in Berlin at the time. He reports to have seen armored vehicles that were clearly not German decorated with Balkan crosses intermingled with a variety of civilian vehicles.

[Ungar]

I am reading
Hungary 1944-1945
The Forgotten Tragedy

This book is about the whole Hungarian situation towards the end of the war.
I must say that the Russians commited some extremely gruesome crimes in Budapest and was very shaken. NEVER thought that they could do such things..... anywayz

As we know Budapest was held by the IX. SS Geb. Corps.
The German high command (Hitler personally) desperatly wanted to recapture the city.
They even moved the IV. SS Pz.Korps from the Vistula front to the Hungarian front!!!
What was the fascinating thing though is that the Germans managed to seriously undermine the Russian front in Hungary so late in the war Jan. 1945.

THese were the Konrad(I,II,III) operations.
These operations were rather succesful, from the area of the Pilis heigts, Lake Velencei, Lake Balaton the Germans managed to get within 21 km of the battered city( compared to the odd 43kms at Staingrad)
The schocking thing came when Hitler PERSONALLY! called off the attack and left the belieagered soldiers of Budapest to their fate.
The soldiers of the WIking division could not believe this, they could see the city from a castle just before Budapest.

After this operation came the Frulicherswachen (Spring Awakening)
Mar, 1945.
The VI. SS Pz.Korps took part in this operation.
Their objective was to secure the west bank of the Danube.

This is where the Germans proved most of their modern technology and once again late in the war managed to schock the Russian front in Hungary.

Sadly, though after this operation failed the Hungarian front collapsed.


!!!BAH sorry for all this writin!!!