Jager Uniform

[osok]

Hi,
I am trying to set up a Heer Jager team but I am having a bit of difficulty nailing down the correct uniform. Can anybody help me with some details about this, I am trying to recreate the 101st Jager Division on the eastern front around 1943. I have read that jagers wore the same uniform as the Gebirsjagers but I do not know if this was only prior to the light infantry units being redesignated as Jager units in 1942. I want to but a splinter parka, have a bit of cash from christmas and its burning a hole in my pocket but I want to get it right first time. I would really appreciate any help with this matter, does anyone know any links to sites that deal with Jagers, I am having trouble finding this too.
Thanks.

[gadge]

Jager is very different from gebirgsjager... you know this yes?

I always thought jager units wore the same uniform as infantry units but worked in a 'light role', had grass green waffenfarbe and a jager sleeve patch.

Considering some jager units had bicycles wearing climbing gear and cleated boots doesnt seem that sensible.

Im pretty positive you're looking at light role infantry really but, at the risk of sounding negative, i'd question the wisdom of doing an impression of a unit you dont have any concrete documentation and images on.

Why not just set up a Heer team?

If you *really* really want a historically 'creative' heer team head to toe in cam why not do a brandenburg unit, they pretty much got whaever they wanted/needed as they were the german armies best (perhaps only true) special forces unit.

They were jagers...

[osok]

Hi Gadge,
thanks for the reply, the Gebirsjagers were mountain troops and the Jagers were light mountain troops, this is why they shared alot of the same gear. I am just not sure if this was exclusively before 1943 and after that they just wore normal infantry uniform. If you see pictures of jagers after 1943 they wear the Bergmutze mountain cap instead of the normal overseas cap. I have sen them wear the mouse grey parka but not the camo one although I have seen Gebirsjagers wearing them. I just havent seen enough pictures of them to get a deffinite answer to my questions. My reason for wanting to do a Jager impression is just that I have an interest in this unit, I have read a few things about them, my interest initally comming from the film "Cross of iron", I have since read 2 of the authors books ( he is an ex member of this division), I have also read peices on the internet about them, I just cant find many pictures. From my research I have found that there is not a lot of knowledge out there about this division and I would like to play my part in bringing the Jagers out of the shadows.

[gadge]

I still think you're getting a bit confused with the term jager, it doesnt mean light mountain troops it means light infantry.

Jagers were traditionally German skirmishing light infantry.

Mountain troops *are* light infantry.

You have three types of infantry, light, motorised and armoured. Light role means you carry everything you need with you... i used to be an infantryman in a light role battalion

As i've mentioned the brandenburg commando units were Jagers and they *definately * were not mountain troops, they were however light role troops.

To add to the evidence that jager doesnt mean mountain troops the luftwaffe field divs (when run by the army and the luftwaffe) had jager units which were again recce and light role troops not mountain warfare troops.

Here you go, standard kit and marching troops for a jager battalion, a few colour plates down.

books.google.com/books?id=8RTN28LMY4QC&pg=PA23&lpg=PA23&dq=german+jager+units&source=web&ots=IknEEXBF4v&sig=pwwo47HyhEW2BJllOETiO0_b398#PPA27,M1



Its literal translation is hunter.

[osok]

I'm sure you like to think you know everything, you seem to know quite a bit, but not everything. Perhaps the term "light mountain" was not the right term to use, what I should have said was rough or adverse terrain.
If I can quote one source:
"The main purpose of the German Jager Divisions was to fight in adverse terrain where using smaller, coordinated units was deemed a better way to fight than employing the brute force offered by the standard infantry divisions. The Jäger divisions were more heavily equipped than a mountain division, but not as well-armed as a larger infantry division. In the early stages of the war, they were the interface divisions between the mountains and the plains. The Jägers (means “hunters” in German) relied on high degrees of training, and superior communications, as well as their not inconsiderable artillery support. In the middle stages of the war, as the standard infantry divisions were downsized, the Jäger model with two infantry regiments came to dominate the standard tables of organization, and, in 1943, in an attempt to boost morale, Hitler declared that all infantry divisions were now Jägers

www.lostbattalion.com/t-ff_100J.aspx

I have come across several sites all telling the same story, Jagers were affiliated with the Gebirsjagers and SkiJagers, this is why they all wore similar uniform, why else would they wear the mountain cap (Bergmutze)?
As for the boots, you mentioned that they used bikes so they would not use climbing boots, just the normal jackboots, here is a link to a russian reenactment site dealing with the 101st Jager Division, you will see in the picture they are definately not wearing jackboots, you will see jackboots in other pictures but in this one they are wearing climbing boots.

jagerdivision.front.ru/photo_Borodino_1.htm

I have tried emailing this site but their address does not work but they look like they take their reenacting very seriously, I am sure they have the uniform correct.

All I want to know is did their uniform change after the 1943 renaming of light infantry divisions, did they adapt the infantry uniform or did the infantry adapt their uniform or in the fog of war did none of that matter atall.

[gadge]

Well its obvious you want to dress like a gebirgsjager and pretend its a jager impression, i dont think i know everything, just it appears a little more than you, i'm not just making assumptions i'm giving you facts, if you dont like them i cant do much about that.

Look at the pic i referenced you to, completely standard infantry equipment, admittedly a painting from a photo but volstad is usually very accurate.

Most if not all the pics i've seen to date of jager units have standard m43 caps by the way not mountain caps. A casual google image search shows this. (in fact the pic of the group you reference to shows most of them in m43 caps)

I've tried helping you, you continue to bend history to suit your own means chap.

If you dont get your terminology straight you only have yourslef to blame, you cant kep inventing new definitions for the word jager.

I know you dont like it but Jager means hunter/light infantry not 'adverse terrain troops, mountain infantry' or anything else you want it to be, its quite literally hunter and has no relevance to terrain, if you contract the word you get 'jagd' as used to define armour or air units in a hunting role etc . Is a panzerjager a 'light mountain tank' or 'adverse terrain tank'.. of course its not..

It means hunter and has done for *hundreds* of years and still does in german military parlance. traditionally jager units were recruited for their hunting and outdoors skills and acted as skirmishers, all units from then have taken on this tradition, yes some jager units were deployed in wilderness and hilly areas but its not their reason detre, equally those in those roles got the right equipment when they could.

Basically you want a splinter parka and lots of splinter pattern stuff and you want to justify it with an impression, nothing wrong with that but please accept the fact of what a jager designation is.

Please dont take this as a personal issue, I was genuinely trying to help you and discussed your query with several associates in the re-enacting scene and they all concur with what i've told you, the only extra thing they coudl add is what you yourself have furnished in that late war th term jager is *purely* honorific and has no relation to role or equipment whatsoever.

I do query why you come on a site asking about something you profess to know little about but wanting to shoehorn in certain items you like the look off then get uppity when you're given facts that dont fit what you want to hear.

So please dont insult me stick to facts.

[osok]

I'm not trying to shoehorn in anything, when I originally decided to try to do this unit I presumed that they just wore the normal infantry uniform, it was only when I done a bit more research, visiting forums, reading anything I could about all types of jagers, that I read that they wore the same uniform as the gebirsjagers. This threw all my plans up in the air and I have been trying to find something deffinite since then. I have been in contact with a guy who is in a gebirsjager reenactment group who agreed with what I had read. The Russian reenactment group reaffirmed this when I saw the boots they wear.
I think it is you trying to make me look stupid, at what point did I say Jager meant "adverse terrain", I said they were troops trained to operate in "adverse terrain".
I dident come on here to fall out with anybody, certainly not someone who offered me advice on my query, but I dident come on here to be talked down to either. I cant see the drawing in the book you talked about, I would love to see somthing, I was going to order one of them books in my local shop but there are several of them which deal with the general area of the eastern front.
I like the splinter camo, i preferr the tan and water one but that was issued even less so i have counted that out, I never mentioned a full camo outfit, i would buy the grey parka just as easy, I just like camo. I preferr jackboots to climbing boots, I was disapointed when I saw this, if anything I have been looking for photos of jagers wearing jackboots so I could wear them instead.
I am sorry if what i have read conflicts with what you know, unless I can find a definnitive resource for this we will have to agree to disagree.
Thanks for the help, no hard feelings,
Jason.

[gadge]

Look at the link, click on the 'look inside this book/preview' section, should be a colour plate or two in there.

I would have cut and paste the image for you but it cleverly doesn't let you do it and i dont think osprey would be too happy with me doing it, you'll also find some b7w photos of jager troops on that preview section.

I'm not trying to make you look stupid i was merely pointing out that the designation jager doesn't mean its a mountain unit, far from it. As you yourself have acquiesced the title jager cold be honorific and not imply troops trained for adverse conditions of any kind...

To be perfectly honest if you're doing a late war impression then its rare for anyone to have jackboots and low boots and gaiters are most common, you see some guys with marching/jack boots but mainly senior ncos and old sweats. (although i've photos of new recruits with 2nd panzer and LFD units wearing them in 44 which means it can happen)

Good luck with getting some more info on them, you're right there doesnt seem to be a lot on the net.

Have you tried the axis history forums? or www.wwiireenacting.co.uk

Lot of very helpful folk on both of those.

[gadge]

This site any good, appears to be about div. 101.
hitywwii.webovastranka.cz/image/238_101._horsk%C3%A1_div%C3%ADzia,_bojovala_v_Dargove.

Depends how good your polish(?) is though.

[gadge]

or czech even.. doh

[odinfish]

osok is correct in his research of Jäger-Divisionen. The men were outfitted and equipped in a mix of Infantry and Gebirgs gear...nothing was actually "standard" except for the usage of the traditional Jäger waffenfarbe...the sleeve and cap patches were dominant but not available to everyone.

gadge -- you and many others have tried to place importance on the meaning and history of the word "Jäger" but during WWII, as you know, many things were changed and/or distorted to some degree or another, whether for good or ill. To put some things in better perspective Gebirgs were considered high elevation troops and Jäger were middle elevation fighters...was this always the case? Absolutely not...they both went and fought just about everywhere, although, Jäger mainly fought middle to low elevation.

Jäger wore both Bergmutze and M43 caps. Why? Because these divisions were made up of guys from Infantry, Gebirgs, and otherwise, and not every article of uniform or gear was available to everyone. These certainly were not cookie-cutter troops. You'll find that entire Infanterie-Divisionen evolved into Jäger troops...some units were destroyed leaving only a handful of guys, whether Infantry or Gebirgs, and would then get folded over into Jäger or otherwise depending on the need at the time.

The most common misconception is that Jäger were some uber-elite force and they weren't. There wasn't time for that type of training anymore. They specialized in "shoot and scoot" tactics as best as they could while learning from each situation as well as from their comrades. The reason why there isn't much specific info about Jäger troops is that they were literally applied wrong and became cannon fodder with most units meeting with total annihilation...especially on the Eastern Front. They fulfilled roles such as Recon, anti-tank, and of course light infantry as well as others.

www.feldgrau.com/
www.axishistory.com/
www.wwiidaybyday.com/
ww2aa.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=axis&action=display&thread=1157427786


Constructive arguments without the bashing are honored more, gentlemen. It's ok to have a difference in opinion and some sources available will instigate that. When stating something as "fact"...please list or verify your sources as well. Everything should be taken with a grain of salt however.

Mike

[osok]

Thanks for the link gadge, I think it could be something I am looking for, it is deffinatly something to do with the 101st division, I'll have a better look tomorrow when I have more time, my czech isint up to scratch these days.
Odinfish, thanks for the support, would love to talk more.

[gadge]

seriously osok i want to help as much as i can.

I reckon , personally, i'd go for 'iconic' and copy say Steiner from CoI until you can get the evidence to do a dead good 101 div loadout,

I reckon steiner wears m40 tunic, m43 keilhose, splinter parka, m43 cap, and inf fighting order kit. Cant recall if he wears marching boots or low boots

And once again, i was trying to have a full on debae, not knock you mate, apologies if i come across as harsh.

By all means mail me a t [e-mail] and i'll do my best to help off forum and as you're in the local of the brit isles check out my forums (www.ww2airsoft.org.uk) and well all try and help best we can.

[odinfish]

Please keep your discussions and findings here instead of offlist if it pertains to this subject...I'm sure there are many who would benefit from this rather obscure topic.


Mike

[osok]

Cheers gadge, we will try to keep it friendly from now on, i dont want to make enemies in something i am new to, the reason i came to the forum was to get information from people who have a good knowledge of the whole subject. I love the ww2 airsoft site, it was one of the first sites I found after discovering airsoft was legal in Ireland, it inspired me to set up this unit.
Odinfish do you have any other info or resources on the Jagers, I have visited the sites you linked to already, they are good but limited. I used to be a web designer and i am tempted to start one about jagers, I dont really have the time but I would love to do it. If anyone has any info on them please let me know, if I get enough to start something it might give me the boost I need to get off my arse.
Cheers everybody.

[osok]

I should be able to give some definate info on this subject in early Febuary. I have just ordered a book online about Jager Batallions, its a pictoral guide to uniforms, weapons, equipment etc. Its arrival date is Feb 7th so if all goes well and it arrives on time I should be able to answer this question for myself and anyone else who may be interested.