Thompson Systema Turbo Motor (Short.) Problems

[redvonhammer]

Hi all!

I have run into a bit of a problem here. It goes pretty much like this:


Today I received my accessories in the mail (Systema Turbo Motor, and oilless bearings.)

I at first installed the bearings, because I lacked one bearing from before (Hence the reason I ordered the bearings.)

Weapon: CYMA M1A1 Thompson
Problem: Engine.

And I put in the original engine. And tested, works splendidly!

So I then put in the new engine, the Systema Turbo Motor.

It fires ONE shot, then the gears doesnt rotate anymore..

I take it out, and put in the original one again. Fires on each shot.

I take of the contacts to the engine, and just put them on the new Systema Turbo Motor, holding it in my hand, and pulling the trigger, rotates like a mad chopper, with incredible torque (Despite being a Turbo motor.)

And then I put the new one into the gun again. Nothing. I put in Original, works. And I can go on like that.


Now, just so I can pre-clarify, because when I brought this up on my usual whereabouts (A norwegian airsoft forum.) All I got was questions on the new bearings and if they were shimmed, etc etc. Now obviously those works like a dream, or the original engine wouldnt even be able to fire....... Had a long uneccesary off-topic discussion about this on the other forum, people wouldnt stop talking about shims and bearings as if it was a gearbox fetish fantasy.. so I just gave up asking for help there.

So, bearings works like a charm, original engine thusforth handles the gears and spring like a charm, but my new engine does not.

The Systema Turbo Motor is certified for springs up to atleast M135.

My gun fires a mere 330, so based on those specifications alone, I dare go as far as saying the spring and gears and piston and all that is not the problem. The thing works when its out of the gun, but not when its inside the gun. I have done everything the manual wants me to do.

The motor talks, but doesn`t walk..


Sincerely Yours

RvH

[fido]

check the motor adjustment screw....you need to adjust it maybe to accommodate the new motor...
maybe the drive shaft is a bit longer, and reaches more into the gears causing more friction...

after the one shot, does it make any sound, or does it just stop and do nothing?

[redvonhammer]

Wheres the motor adjustement screw? The small one on the motor pinion gear? In that case it fits perfectly into the bevel gear and has a good grip on it.


It does make a sound when I pull the trigger, and then it stops making the sound, and I release the trigger, and it makes the sound again. Its as if it tries to rotate the pinion gear (And I can see the bearings move alittle.) and then it stops (With the gears going back to same position.) The bevel gear (And the other gears.) rotates maybe 4-5 degree (Out of 360.) and then goes back to 0.


Sincerely Yours

RvH

[fido]

no its at the end of the motor or better said motor case
a small grub screw which pushes a round plate on the motor

€dit:

heres a quote from asr:

IVa. Motor Adjustment

If you have reshimmed your mechbox while upgrading it, it will probably be necessary to adjust the motor height to the proper position of the newly shimmed bevel gear. Depending on what gun you have, there either be a small 1.5mm allen screw on the bottom of your pistol grip, a flathead screw on the bottom of your pistol grip, or an adjustment screw on the actual motor (as is the case with the P90).

When you find that screw, fire the gun on semi-automatic mode, and note the pitch of the noise that emanates from the mechbox. Loosen the screw half a turn at a time. If the sound becomes higher-pitched, stop, and begin tightening the screw. Again, only tighten it a half-turn at a time. When your gun as a whole is at its quietest, stop turning the screw, and secure the screw it to its correct position using locktite or similar adhesive. This will make sure your motor stays at its correct position and not come ajar after long bouts of firing.

www.airsoftretreat.com/features/reviews/mechbox_guide/

[redvonhammer]

Aaah! Right! Well, that screw cannot be adjusted, theres no hole for flat wrench or allen key.. I guess im screwed..

Edit: I was putting the gun back together, when putting the red wire on the red contact stick for the engine, the stick broke off! I am truly and utterly put out from airsoft this winter! Damn it! Why do they have to make that damned screw for a simple earth plate for a applesauce ty engine anyways? I buy parts and parts for hundreds of dollars for no damned use! Yeah im crying, this just ruined what hopes I had left for ww2 airsoft , or maybe airsoft at all I could try to use some tin to melt the wire on, but what good would it do? it would snap right off as soon as the torque started twisting the wire when I shoot..

[biged]

There is a motor disk beneath the motor. Make sure it is there.
There is an allen head screw to adjust the motor height. It can adjusted in and out like the above link stated.
The description of your symptoms sounds like the new motor is improperly adjusted and needs to go in or out. I would say most likely IN or clockwise. The motor torques over to one side and locks up inside the cage.

1. Remove the grip.
2. Test fire the gun.
-- If the gun locks up:
---- 1. Remove the motor cage screws and pull the assembly from the gun.
---- 2. Hold onto the motor cage and pull the trigger for 1-2 seconds.
---- 3. Put the motor cage back into the gun and reinstall the screws.
-- If the gun does not lock up:
---- Listen to the sound/pitch/whine of the gears. The pitch should not be too high, and sound dull. Adjust clockwise and listen. Go clockwise too much and it may lock-up again. Go out (counter-clockwise) and it will screech.
3. Reinstall the grip.

///ed///

[biged]

You edited your reply while I was replying.

Yes you can solder the wire onto the motor. But if you have to disassemble the gun in the future you will have to de-solder it to get the gun apart.
You could also solder on a new contact so the wire can be connected / disconnected easily.

///ed///

[redvonhammer]

and if the gun locks up, like it does now?

I went through with all my allen keys and found one that fit

But.. It still locks up.. I hardly even hear the sound, It drowns in the trigger pull, but it now does the same thing it did when it is screwed onto the gearbox and tested, barrely 3-4 degree around its own axis and then it just stops and roll back to start..

I screw in and out by half a rotate at a time, and put in and out of gun like a madman so much that the screws for the motor house is almost burning because of all the screwing, but it just does not work at all.

Edit: Ofcourse I edited my reply with an update rather then writing a new reply, the mods would have clicked if they noticed.. Also, the edit was regarding to the original motor, which was not the problem at the time. This thread is made entirely and solely in regards of getting the Turbo motor to work. And everything I have been adviced of here, I have been doing with the Turbo Motor, not the original, which functioned perfectly until the unfortunate accident. I will not be speaking of the original motor in this thread again, as it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
thx






RvH

[biged]

This is going to sound really dumb but just TRY this.

Swap the wires on the motor. Put the red wire on the black contact on the motor, and the black wire on the red motor contact.
The polarity may be wrong either in the wiring of the gun or (mis-labeled) on the motor itself.

It's wouldn't be the first time something was mis-labeled in the world of airsoft.

///ed///

[redvonhammer]

Hi

I thought that as well. And I tried, Seen from the right, the motor pinion wheel should spin to the left (Clockwise, if seen from above.) Correct?
So I put the wires opposite. And the pinion wheel thus actually rotates clockwise when i push the trigger. So I screw it onto the gearbox again. But It still locks.

I went over the gearbox again just to make sure, and I cleaned it, and put on more grease. But I found nor did nothing that indicates close to an answer to the weird question why a quality Systema motor fails utterly and completely so to those incredible degrees on a gearbox where a Cyma engine did just great.. Maybe I should try switching pinion gears to the ones of the original gearbox?

Sincerely Yours

RvH

[biged]

When the motor is inside the motor cage can it move around?

With the motor screw backed out alittle you should be able to move the motor around with you fingers up and down. If it is super tight, loosen the cage screws so the motor can move.

A last ditch effort is to remove the motor adjusting disk. For some reason I suspect the motor is too high on the bevel gear thus not turning at all.

Examine both motor pinion heads they should be identical.

///ed///

[redvonhammer]

Ok, now we`re getting somewhere here!

I take a flat screwdriver and push the anti-reversal latch so the wheels unwine. and then put the motor back on, BAM BAM BABABABABAM BAM, then stop. Then I screw of the motor again, repeat process. Screw it back on. BAM BAM BABABABABABABABAM BAM BAM, then stop.

I tried the new anti reversal latch as well, but same problem.


I donno what this is, but it`s definitly called: Progress!

So I am hoping this will be the solution, with your approval (I will not do anything that I do not know anything about.)

The Anti reversal latch is supposed to have a shim? In that case, I do have one, I just thought it was for a screw.

Btw, yes the engine can move around

Sincerely Yours

RvH

[DeB]

no shim on the antireversal....
maybe you can file the rear part of motor cage to make some more room so the motor can stand more rearwards... I'm only supposing....

[redvonhammer]

yes, getting closer to solution here.


I`ll try to take out the motor height plate (That thin nickel coloured one.) And take the screw as far out as possible. And see if that gets any better.


S!

RvH

[biged]

Compare the overall length of both the original motor and the turbo.
Do the same with the width of the motor. I have a feeling the systema is slightly longer and wider than the cyma motor.

Are you working/testing with the gearbox out of the receiver?
Test it with the gearbox inside the receiver, the selector plate can jump from semi/auto/safe easily.

The Turbo will fire 3-4 round BURSTS on SEMI-Auto in Thompsons. It's a drawback of the design of the semi-auto cutoff lever.

///ed///

[redvonhammer]

The new one:
Its 7.4 CM Long
2.4 CM Thick.
2.9 CM Wide

The old one: Its 7.4 CM long.
2.5 CM thick
2.8 CM Wide.

Both glides fluently in the motor housing with either coil spring.

When I test outside the receiver, the new one fires a few shots before it hangs. When I test inside the receiver, the new one hardly makes the bevel gear rotate 90 or 180 Degree around its own axis (My reason for saying that is because I hear no shot being fired. And upon pushing the anti reversal latch, it doesnt rotate so much back.)



Sincerely Yours

RvH

[biged]

Try this:

* Loosen up the gearbox screws by 1.5 turns.
* Also loosen the motor cage screws that attatch the motor cage to the gun.
* Test fire it.

If it fires more often, but is still sluggish your box is over-shimmed for that motor. Drop the shimming down ONE size shim only on each gear.
If it fires like a normal you have the gearbox is over-shimmed.

With the Turbo in the motor cage and attatched to the gearbox and installed in the receiver it is effecting something with the meshing of the bevel gear. The pinion head on the Turbo is new and maybe still too high up on the bevel gear to properly mesh with it. Going down one or two shim sizes on the back side of the bevel gear. This may give the motor pinion gear the space it needs to mesh with the bevel gear.

///ed///

[buttons]

I'd say you likely have a dead spot on the motor, especially if the motor stops when spinning on it's own.

[redvonhammer]

It doesnt fire at all now no matter what, now I get the same old dadat, dadat, dadat, when I pull and release the trigger, it doesnt want to rotate the gears, I tried all settings with the bottom screw and plate for motor, but still the same. This just doesnt add up in my mind..


For a precaution, I took the liberty of taking of the shims again, and ended up with same result as abovely mentioned, and as mentioned over that, and over that, and over that again (Edit:Not being rude here, just implying that I`m getting bored with the whole thompson thingy.) It all should work, but it doesn`t...

Edit: I took the motor of the gearbox, and held in the trigger for 1 min, it dropped RPM and stopped totally! Is that normal?

RvH

[buttons]

It means you have a dead spot. You can try and replace the brushes and hope for the best, but honestly you'd be better off just ordering a new one.

[biged]

Buttons is right... After all that, you have ruled out everything else... It's a defective motor.
Contact the retailer and see if you can exchange it for a new one.

///ed///

[redvonhammer]

Indeed.

I sent RWA a mail asking if this was possible.


Thank you so much everybody Couldn`t have done it without your extreme expertise and good patience


Sincerely Yours

RvH