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Post by ukkolziasd on Feb 26, 2008 13:36:38 GMT -5
Oooh, yes, of course. Hm, didn't think of that for some reason. x)
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KRaddatz
Private 1st Class
505th
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Post by KRaddatz on Feb 26, 2008 17:53:49 GMT -5
Those are amazing, how much for one?
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Feb 26, 2008 21:35:15 GMT -5
I ordered a bunch of them to minimize shipping and they should end up arriving for somewhere around $5.00 each and fairly minimal time to alter. If I end up attaching a cut down enblock clip that will add $1.00 in cost to each mag but assuming it works okay is something I plan to do. Updated note: Depending on the source the clips with shipping end up around 5 to 6.00 each. I ended up NOT using the cut down enblock clips as I was fully happy with the end result and they were a bitch to cut. I now do the trimming and cust as per the tutorial. I paint the main clip brass colored and then glue two slab walls of ABS partly up the sides to look like the end block clips and to fill the sidewall gap left in the M14 magwell. The ABS sidewall slabs are the same thickness as the forward tab which is handy. Once sanded, and final inspected to insure they work I package them in a bandoleer of six clips and sell them for $86.00 for ther set. (Under $15.00 each and that includes a WW2 cotton bandoleer with the cardbord inserts. They fill the bandoleers out nicely. Essentially it adds $10.00 per clip in labor. Obviously making them yourselves is the way to go as it would save $100.00 for a Garand belt full. I usually have several dozen on hand.
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Post by ukkolzi on Feb 28, 2008 9:54:39 GMT -5
Just finished converting 20 of these shotgun mags. Otherwise OK, but they don't feed properly unless pressed slightly against the magwell. No real problem here, at least it prevents shooting with one hand only. I like to keep the protruding front "lip" intact. It makes magazine changes very easy, (especially in winter when you have to wear gloves) when you push it with the other hand while the other operates the release lever. There still might be a place for the normal converted M14 mags, as they are extremely reliable and solid. They also fill bandoleers nicely. But I think the shotgun mags are the way to go unless you got a lot of money and time to spend.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Feb 28, 2008 13:44:04 GMT -5
Having to press on them is not ideal of course but a huge improvement none the less. I agree there is still a place for the original style clips but can't say that I will miss making them. I'm of course still awaiting the arrival of my clips from RSOV and wish there was another source or two! I know they are sold out for now.
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Post by ukkolziasd on Feb 28, 2008 16:35:29 GMT -5
There could be ways to make them stay tightly pressed against the feeding tube. One way could be to make the front mag catch in the gun a bit longer and make a notch to the upper front part of the magazine. This would prevent the use of normal M14 type mags, though. Other would be to use a Garand clip as shellshokt did. This would make them fiddly to take out of the gun, as he said.
As for now, the shotgun mags are completely usable. They only need a very gentle push to ensure proper feed. In practice, this means supporting the rifle from the magwell, so your palm presses the magazine in better. It would still be nice to make them feed properly without "help".
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Post by ukkolziasd on Feb 28, 2008 17:05:16 GMT -5
Gotta try to fix this login thing, it's kinda annoying when you can't modify your posts.
Anyway, there's a WW2 game coming next saturday, and all types of magazines will be present there. We'll see how they work in action. I think I'll be sticking with the converted M14 mags, since making a huge lot of them was such a fun operation and I'd like to use them at least in ONE game. ;D 2ndbat, I don't even want to know how many you have made.
I also tried to find some stores that stock the shotty mags but with no luck.
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Post by ukkolzi on Feb 29, 2008 12:52:15 GMT -5
Update on the shotty mags!
We got them ticking flawlessly. The answer was a piece of plastic with a notch, epoxied directly to the front of the mag . They come out easily enough and feed well. I'll post some pictures probably on monday.
Even with this modification, they are still simple and cheap to make and seem to feed about as well as the regular M14 magazines.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 2, 2008 0:02:13 GMT -5
That is awesome news. Again waiting for mine to arrive and still trying to locate another source. One customer said he was adding styrene flutes so the clips angled outward somewhat to fill the mag well more completely. I'm unclear what he's referring to but he said it was easy and looked a lot better from down below.
The model shotgun comes under a variety of brands as is often the case with the inexpensive Chinese products. Apprently they are branded under CSI, TSD CYBERgun and SR. They are a replica Mossberg 500 but be sure you source the ones with the detachable box magazine that is flush mounted. Not the one that hangs down. It usually has a designation of either 003 or 798. The magazine is listed as either a 14 round, 15 round or even 16 round depending on the web site but I'm not having any luck finding anyone who stocks the magazines and has them on time currently.
EVIKE has something similar but want $7.00 each for them plus outrageous shipping.
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Post by ukkolziasd on Mar 2, 2008 8:00:02 GMT -5
We tested the lot of 20 shotty mags yesterday in the Hürtgen event in two different rifles. All worked well and surprisingly, none got lost. I suggest inserting only one mag per pouch, makes life MUCH easier, as you can just drop them in and easily get them out. Especially when the belt is soaking wet and thus, a bit shrunk.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 2, 2008 13:45:10 GMT -5
One per Garand pocket would be more authentic as well. I can imagine it's much easier to pull out and put in. (At 12 rounds or so something I bet you did a lot of!) This of course in my book is part of the fun of a WW2 airsoft event. Glad to hear they worked so well and thanks for keeping us updated. I feel like a kid waiting to get my shipment of them.
Incidently I am preceeding with the CnCing of a proper all wood lower stock for the Garand AEGs. Since the stocks will be deeper the new shortened clips will be capable of being capped with what would look like an entirely appropriate base plate for photos and such. Naturally it will be removed and put away during game play.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 4, 2008 16:55:09 GMT -5
I just received notification from RSOV (after several inquiries) that they didn't have the 50 sets of clips in stock that I ordered and their site showed as in stock. Instead the had only five sets which they will ship to me. Obviously there was quite a run on these clips or the site was wrong. Hopefully I will get the 10 clips I ordered in a reasonable time and get refunded for the 90 they don't have but I paid for.
In the meantime I located another potential source which is EVIKE but their price per magazine is almost eight dollars (delivered) and they also were nearly sold out. I ordered what little they had (10 magazines) Between the two of them I will get hopefully 20 clips to mess with. I will keep trying to source them elsewhere as I'll need at least 100 on hand for myself and a dozen or so players with Garands who will be at the Jump to Destiny game.
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Post by ukkolziasd on Mar 7, 2008 17:58:07 GMT -5
You better have a lot of epoxy for a hundred mags. We used it quite generously to secure the plastic pieces in the front well enough and then some. The plastic we used was cut from gutted G&P AK-74 mags. It's about 2-3mm thick. On the first mags, the front notch should be done very carefully (file - try - file - try...) to ensure proper feed. As you make more of them, this becomes a routine and a quick operation with a Dremel. The notch on the back of the mag is good enough when it holds the mag in the gun, even when yanked a bit. The placement doesn't have to be super accurate. It's the front end that counts. I'll post some pictures when our "professional" photographer is at work.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 7, 2008 18:10:44 GMT -5
Please do. That's great news. I'm not having great luck finding additional sources but a local retailer claims to have them in his source catalogue and I've ordered a hundred through him at $5.00 a piece. I am going to be quite busy modifying all of them but what I've found is when doing large groups once you get in a routine things get much easier. I want to be able to use the Garand enblock clips to add weight and strength which will add a dollar to my cost on each but I think will make them a lot neater. I naturally won't know till I get some. If you can post pictures on your mods that will be most helpful and will help others who I'm sure are following this thread with great interest.
I'm assuming you dremel the upper lip completely flush? I can see how the front notch is in many ways the most critical. I'm hoping to be able to use sheet styrene or ABS plastic sheeting as I have lots and lots of that.
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Post by ukkolziasd on Mar 7, 2008 18:50:05 GMT -5
Yeah, you'll have to be pretty careful with the upper lip, as it's too easy to dremel off a bit too much plastic and then the mag won't feed unless pressed against the gun. The plastic itself should be as strong as possible, because there's going to be some pressure against it when the mag is pulled out of the rifle. The best Dremel blades for the conversion job are the basic sanding tool and a small carving tool which makes the carving of sharper corners much easier. If the corners are too round, they won't hold the mag in securely enough, so some fine tuning is most likely required. Here's an Ersatz-illustration made again with MS Paint: s244.photobucket.com/albums/gg12/Ukklzi/Thompson/?action=view¤t=M1-mag.jpgClick the image to see it larger.
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Post by ukkolziasd on Mar 8, 2008 11:17:46 GMT -5
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Post by lindir on Mar 8, 2008 18:02:00 GMT -5
Are you going to sell them 2nd bat ? just wondering if i should combine the wood stock order and the magazines
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 8, 2008 20:22:27 GMT -5
My original shortened magazines were so labor intense and materials dependent that it was impossible for me to offer them as a viably priced accessories. These on the otherhand appear very simple to do and don't require expensive components. If I can find a ready resource for them in reasonable numbers I'll certainly offer them as an available accessory. They will of course have to cost a little more then the unmodified magazines but hopefully not much. I'll know more after I get them in and have some time to dink around trying different things. Update: They are for sale in bandoleer packs for $86.00 plus shipping
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Post by bluenose68 on Mar 13, 2008 16:43:09 GMT -5
These look the nuts. I'm another guy, like 2ndBatt, waiting for these to return to stock with our Chinese chums!
Can you guys post some measurements for the ABS tas welded to the fron of the mags? I'm a bit of a klutz and could do with some instructions!
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 14, 2008 22:51:17 GMT -5
Finally after ordering groupings of mags from three different suppliers I actually received my first batch. They are amazingly close to fitting with no modification at all. With just a tiny bit of tweaking they work like a charm and are as though they were made for use with my guns. I am going to try several adaptations to see what will work best and once I have finalized a design I like I'll submit pictures of the process. I am contemplating creating an external mold that will provide a precise shape that will enhance the looks of the magazine itself, accomodate the mag release and forward catch and fill the magzine area complely when popped into place in the rifle.
Evike and RSOV has disappointed me greatly in being amazingly slow in filling my orders. (I still don't have them from either of them having ordered them over 10 days ago.) The order I got today was ordered three days ago through a local retailer who ordered them and had them drop shipped to me.
I'll get some pictures of my efforts as they develop. These little guys are amazingly cool. Lindir I still haven't received the latest iteration of my revised stock. It came back two times previously requiring tweaks and hopefully will be spot on this time and hence can be replicated in numbers. Each shipment brought it closer and closer to precisely what I wanted and a perfect fit. It together with the flush monted affordable clips are going to be awesome.
Ikkolzi did you not do a notch catch on the back side to function with the mag release? Incidently the enblack clip doesn't work as a weighted surround on these magazines unless you dremel the lip edges before slipping them on and that is going to be too labor intense. I will probably do some variation of it for the purposes of creating my mold as I like the looks of it and have a concept that I think will be pretty cool visually.
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Post by ukkolziasd on Mar 15, 2008 11:34:13 GMT -5
Sure, I cut a notch at the rear too. Otherwise they wouldn't fit tight. There isn't too much room in depth for the notch. I figured the best shape would be something like this: ________ | 7 | |_______
And they fit flawlessly, don't come out even when pulled if the release lever is not operated.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 15, 2008 13:00:15 GMT -5
So you just notch inward as compared to creating a small nub as on the original M14 magazine. Wow that's obviously a whole lot easier to do.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 19, 2008 2:00:11 GMT -5
I finally got in my orders from all three sources. They arrived in reverse order of my payment. The first one I bought were from RSOV (three weeks ago) and they arrived today. I have built the adaptations three different ways and made five of each to test thoroughly. The nblock clips as mentioned earlier do have to be cut down with each of the edges curved in surface removed in order for the metal to slide over the clip. Once in place they do provide weight and are exactly the right width for the mag well. For this reason the clip doesn't jiggle at all and the simple notch in the back is actually enough to allow the magazine to load pretty consistently and pop in and out nicely. The enblock clip also looks great and adds a little weight and "substance" to the otherwise flimsy nature of these clips. When inserted in the gun it just somehow looks right.
I find the clips consistently fire 12 rounds with 3 BBs almost always dropping out during reload. (Normal BB drop due the distance between the magazine and the tapet plate inside the gun.) As always if you're in a panic situation turn the gun upside down and you'll be able to fire those last three shots.
Popping out the clip takes a little practice but with a little practice becomes and smooth process. Two handed just like loading a real Garand except you're loading from the rear instead of the top. You hit the mag release with your thumb and push up at the front of the clip with your bad finger. The clip pivots and you can pinch it at the rear and pull it out. As with the M14 mag you have to angle the clip into place and once you hear the rush of the BBs going into the gun you pivot the clip into place and push it until you hear the mag catch snap into place.
Occassionally on some of the adapted magazine you have to push up on the front of the clip in order to prevent missfeeds but this seems to be fairly rare, and isn't especially problematic. Cutting the enblock clips is time consuming and expensive as it takes about one cutting wheel for every two clips you cut. (Four cuts per clip) At a buck a cutting wheel that adds up pretty fast if like me you figure you'll be making hundreds of them. If you're making 10 clips for your personal rifle not really a big deal. I painted the plastic clips brass colored (just for the heck of it) and once mounted into the enblock clip gave a nice look at a distance. I left the base on the plastic clip black so once in the gun it presented a all balck surface on the base of the gun. The clip isn't as long as the M14 magazine (front to rear) hence if you wanted to (and had a long skinny object) you could adjust the hop up with the magazine installed. This NOT something you can do with a conventional M14 magazine in place.
Ukkolsie and Shellshoct I am greatly in your debt. Thanks for the best news I've had in a long time. These clips are awesome and change everything with regard to skirmishability for my Garand AEGs. I built hundreds of my old clips which were far more expensive to acquire, way more effort to build and no where near as attractive or hassle free as these. The hours spent building them is time out of my lfe I will never get back but the notion that I will never have to make another is a God send. Thanks again guys.
I'll post pictures of the various approaches I've taken and give a final report on the results of my testing.
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Post by ukkolziasd on Mar 19, 2008 6:31:25 GMT -5
Good to hear they feed OK with the Garand clip. I would still consider the plastic lip in the front, as it makes them absolutely 100% reliable, and no-one could whine about feeding issues of any kind. Of course, this would add up in the total time used when you make a huge lot of these. I just sold all 16 of my converted M14 magazines to a fellow Garand owner for a very reasonable price. Well, now at least someone will have use for them, and they're not here to remind me of the hours put to them. Please do post your experiments!
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 19, 2008 11:32:56 GMT -5
I have a huge number of M14 low cap magazines that I was just getting ready to tear up. The presence of this new approach saved me this exhausting, labor intense process. I built hundreds of the old style and am delighted that I will never have to make another again!
I'll get some notes and pictures up when I get the camera shots downloaded. Eventually I will have to create a tutorial on whatever design I decide to finalize. I am seeing that the front latch notch seems to be the most critical step but honestly the enblock clip filler is huge in terms of lining the mag up and preventing it from wiggling and missfeeding. One thought I had that would save a great deal of production time would be to fill the sides of the inside of the mag housing with some abs sheeting. This would eliminate the need for the enblock spacing on each clip. Use of a conventional M14 mag of course would be eliminated but I for one am fine with that now that reliable and inexpensive clips are available. It would suck however in a conventional skirmish against modern players with box mags!
I find that since I'm using ABS sheeting for my added notch, ABS glue is absolutely the way to go. Drys fast and really binds the added notch. I did some of my clips with the rear noth as well as the forward grooves and while they really locked in nicely they were a bit too hard to get in and out. (I built five of them)
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Post by ukkolziasd on Mar 19, 2008 13:44:55 GMT -5
Hmm, I didn't have any problems pulling them out of the gun. Some required a little yank from the back but otherwise OK, even with gloves on. We tested them in a game, and didn't have any issues with them; all fed properly and although they wiggle a bit, it didn't affect their functionality in any way. It might be the shape of the front notch, I made them a bit round, but not round enough to let the magazine slide down on its own. The enblock clips would still add some nice heft and solidness to them. If only I could be arsed to add them too...
The filling strategy might be an excellent idea if the gun would only be used with the shotty mags. Hmm, what if the filling part would be done in a way that it attaches to teh magwell with screws rather than glue? That would make it removable and permit the use of normal M14 mags (which look pretty cool in a Garand ;D).
ABS glue would definitely be superior for this job, I'll have to get some of that. But, a generous amount of epoxy should still hold well enough.
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Post by jd7 on Mar 19, 2008 16:11:03 GMT -5
Em, I was net trawling today and found a workshop in Japan that has made these for their M14 based M1's. I just have to learn Japanese, rather than run thru a linguistic translator - cause the owner doesn't speak English and might not be aware of needs in UK(Where I'm from) and USA where most of u folks live They also do a custom stock - without the M14 rear flip baseplate. i'm sure they are just a little outfit workshop but - was in awe at their work Del
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Post by ukkolziasd on Mar 19, 2008 16:27:41 GMT -5
Hehe, let them have fun with the M14 mags. Those look neatly done, but I wonder how long it took to make just those three.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 20, 2008 21:46:19 GMT -5
Here is a progressive picture showing some of my efforts at converting the short shotty magazines into Garand clips. The two closest to the camera are the clips in their unalterred state. The next one up shows a converted clip after the upper feed lip has been filed off and a small bracket attached to the rear as well as front notch. I painted the magazine in a brass textured finsih since I had some of the paint laying around. I added a Garand metal enblock clip after cutting each of the bent corners so it would slide over the clip. This provides weight and makes the clip fit snugly inside the mag well with no gaps to the sides. The next clip up had the rear surface simply grooved and no indentation on the front. Finally the ones in the rear standing on end I drew in some hokey fake bullets just messing around. I tried five different basic designs and made five of each. All worked although the most elaborate are proving somewhat hard to pop in and out. All feed well and assuming they hold up to testing would work well. They are time consuming to make like this but I'm definitely doing more then I need to. They are way less work then my old clip conversions and far less expensive in materials costs. As you can see they fit snugly inside the guns mag well and are flush mounted. They hold 15 rounds and consistently fire 12 rounds. (All 15 if you turn the rifle on it's side to fire off the last three.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 21, 2008 1:24:08 GMT -5
There is no doubt after a lot of experimenting and thousands of shots through several converted M14s to M1 AEGs that the clips as noted by others are best modified with an extension tab to the front portion of the clip. When the feed hole lines up in the M1 mag well it leaves a gap toward the front of the mag well (up by the hop up adjustment) If your clip is snugly into the feed hole without it it actually feeds quite well but does occassionally require you to push up a tiny bit to keep it seated and feeding. With an enblock clip keeping the clip from jiggling sideways inside the mag well this design element is less critical however doing a small tab and filing to shape really solidifys the adaptation. In this regard Ukkolzies ilustration is an excellent guide.
Another thought I had is to fill the walls on both sides of the converted M1 mag well so the clips without enblock clips will fit snugly and not require as much work or expense to build. Not using an enblock clip saves money and a lot of effort as they are time consuming to cut and really eat up dremel cutting wheels. (One wheel for every two enblock clips!) Essentially building up the walls would save $1.50 in cost on each clip and quite a bit of labor. Thin styrene or ABS sheeting would work.
Naturally if you do this adaptation your Garand will no longer be able to accept M14 mags which provided you have lots of the shorty clips isn't a big deal and will encourage more authenticity which I'm always in favor of.
Incidently one nice feature of these clips is they do not obstruct the hop up adjustment at the front of the mag well like a full sized M14 magazine does. The result is you can adjust the hop without removing the clip which is always a lot handier. You do need a long narrow instrument of some kind. (I used a small screw driver)
With my modifoed and somewhat deeper lower stock I will probablt design a cap that will cover the mag well entirely and while I will remove it during skirmish play I think it would provide a more finished look to the bottom of my Garand replicas. It will have to be somewhat longer then the base plate on an actual Garand.
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