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Post by tinydata on Nov 19, 2008 21:09:41 GMT -5
AZR has something on their website showing a M1 carbine stock made to fit M14 internals. The kit should be a complete conversion- interesting.... www.freewebs.com/azrmachine/
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Post by CharleyNovember on Nov 19, 2008 21:38:04 GMT -5
I don't see a m14 fitting in that and looking right. I recently saw an AZR M1 in the flesh at Anzio and I noticed right off it looked "off".
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Post by TripleA on Nov 19, 2008 21:39:06 GMT -5
It would be very cool to have a kit to convert the M14..only knowing AZR's past works I doubt it would be very accurate.
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Post by Guinness on Nov 19, 2008 22:53:00 GMT -5
I've seen the Mini14 versions, obviously an M14 is still too big for that, but its at least a bit more 'passable' then trying to make an M1 Carbine out of one.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 20, 2008 2:51:33 GMT -5
Is there anyone on this board who has ordered from them? I have seen a couple of examples of their workmanship and final products at assorted events and highly recommend (as with anything) you attempt to be relatively comfortable with what you're getting before shelling out the money and experienceing the long wait.
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Post by ramborob17 on Nov 20, 2008 8:40:20 GMT -5
I have one of their M1 Garand conversions. It was a 3 month wait but I love my conversion. It is a little "off" but just because he cant get a M14 to fit to the exact M1 Garand specs.
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Sgt_Tom
Technical Sgt.
Combat!
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Post by Sgt_Tom on Nov 20, 2008 11:46:15 GMT -5
Hey ramborob I saw your video on youtube. I have to say the AZR Gas Cylinder is too short and so is the front handguard. If he would have fixed those things it would have been a great conversion too bad. There M1 Carbine wood stock looks great. It also looks like they have made a new Garand stock, looks a lot better then the old one.
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Post by Guinness on Nov 20, 2008 13:53:36 GMT -5
Yeah, these are all things that myself, in long talks and discussions with Claude, and I'm pretty sure our own 2ndBat had with him about his product. Not sure what the issue is, I know for certain that he has the correct specifications and measurements to create 'correct' M1 Garand furniture and hardware repros- for whatever reason he still has not been able to produce them. I finally gave up stopping short of a full recommendation after spending time dealing with him- He's the nicest guy and all that- but it seems like he is hiding behind the fact that he is in the Philippines and his access to 'real' gun parts is limited- Don't really understand how that would effect a slide rule or measuring tape though..........
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Post by ramborob17 on Nov 20, 2008 14:19:16 GMT -5
If I had seen 2nd Bat conversions before I had laid eyes on his finished product I would have bought 2nd Bat's. I'm not sure if this makes too much of a difference but he normally fits his conversions for the CYMA M14s and I asked that he make it to fit a TM. He said that he had the specs on the TM and it wouldn't be a problem. When I received it the rifle didn't fit quite right. The trigger guard didn't pop into place and the front barrel assembly didn't come together correctly. It took me 3 hours to file down some of the wood and get the barrel to look like it does now. I'm not sure how much of a difference there is between the two brands if any at all. Overall its a decent conversion.
P.S. He moved to New Zealand and is no longer located in the Philippines.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 20, 2008 17:03:59 GMT -5
He was a very nice guy and very eager to improve his product. I sent him measurements and specs along with illustrations and diagrams. He clearly adjusted his stocks and they are much improved from his initial efforts which were beyond horrible. Unfortunately having seen several examples of his finished work there is little in the way of consistency to them. Each is significanly different than the other. Being somewhat off is completely unavoidable as the M14 gearbox won't quite fit in an actual Garand stock. The wood is definitely not a quality hardwood and two out of three local owners had theirs split at the stock neck. (One before it even arrived) The front handguard was too short on all three, as was the gas assembly on one (but not the other two?) It frankly made no sense. all three customers waited 3 months to get them. I felt bad because I had recommended they order from him. I was eager and hopeful that he'd do a good job on his conversions and perhaps ultimately he will.
Anything that gets more Garands on the battlefield is a plus!
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Post by 5thrangerbat on Nov 20, 2008 17:04:23 GMT -5
hhhmm don't chew for this but has there ever been the thought of using like an Mp5s or some type of SMG internals for the M1 carbine?
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 20, 2008 17:20:16 GMT -5
At this point every gear box has been consisdered and tried. None work within the restrictive confines of a carbine stock which provides very little room to work with. There is a thread here by Troyluckinbill and he has come the closest. After about a year and half of work he seemed to be getting close and then...nothing further. These projects are never as easy as they seem to be and AEGs require oprecise tolerances and alignments to work and feed properly. Combine that with alterations or adjustments to position the gear boxes in a new outer body shape and the challenges are quite daunting.
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Post by CharleyNovember on Nov 20, 2008 17:57:18 GMT -5
Skorpian mechbox is reported to work in the carbines small area.
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Post by supernube on Nov 20, 2008 18:18:11 GMT -5
I had the other AZR at Anzio. I think the wood looks fine on mine. I did get a later version with the "robust" stock. One of these days I'll try to compare it to a real garand and nitpick the differences. I know that there are pictures, but nothing compares with a side by side comparison. The fake gas assembly is a little off and it doesn't come with a stacking swivel. I did some mods to fix this and added some epoxy to the inside of the handle area and mine has held up well. The only way that I think the stock would break (at least in the spot in the pictures posted here) is if I repeatedly snatched it up using the sling.
I didn't use it much at Anzio because of all the non WWII guns using hicaps. I didn't want to be that outgunned and thus used my thompson.
The only real problem with this conversion is the mags. I'd like for someone to come up with a solid plate for the magwell that would pop in and out while firmly holding a small mag in place. That would stop all of the feeding issues and look better too.
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Post by tinydata on Nov 20, 2008 18:39:02 GMT -5
does a MP7 GB really not work? I mean, the thing's TINY!
Anyways, anything to get an electric carbine with somewhat reliable performance... it can be a little off
supernube, the plate would be VERY impractical, as you would need one for every single mag you have
2ndBat does have one for his V2 M1s, I believe. It is display only.
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Post by CharleyNovember on Nov 20, 2008 20:31:09 GMT -5
Darn it super I wish you would have shown that Garand to me while I was there. I didn't care for the other AZR I saw. I think a plate for the bottom could be maybe made for the shotgun mags. Not positive on that but worth a shot.
You shouldn't have been outgunned really the Germans were outnumbered by you guys already. Charles used his Thompson on semi auto the whole time because he thought it would help even things up.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 20, 2008 23:13:15 GMT -5
I have actually ordered a Scorpian for the specific purpose of checking that out. It won't be very powerful I suspect but that is certainly in line with a carbine. I have to believe the paraversion at least could be done using the scorpion but as with all things these never go as easily as you would hope.
I have a cap that easily fits over the mag well area and provides a more finished look to the bottom of the gun. It snaps on and off and I just leave it off during field play. I considered hinging it at the front like a small trap door but decided it would just get in the way. Even the version ones have enough clearance with the flush mounted mags that a cap could be made as the small clips fit completely inside.
Incidently in his photos you see a wide variety of shapes and sizes for the Garands. In one side photo they look great and proportionate. In another, the front hand guard is tiny or the gas barrel assembly is way too stubby. In still other photos showing the stocks alone there is a huge bulge in front of the area where the trigger assembly is going to attach. This humped bulge doesn't appear on the gorgeous side view of the fully finished gun. It's all very inconsistent.
I finally saw the picture of the carbine stock and indeed it clearly is a carbine. That picture alone doesn't begin to tell how it would all look finished or how he'll accomplish the significantly smaller size. (I don't know how he possibly could) It also doesn't answer what he would do for magazines. I wish him great luck as a carbine is a badly needed addition to our WW2 US arsenals.
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Post by supernube on Nov 20, 2008 23:23:00 GMT -5
It was just too much fun killing the Jerries with full auto ;D. Back on the tangent topic. I'm not talking about a plate for each mag. I'm talking about a hinge type system that would release on one pivot point (probably there the mag release is now), and latch in on the opposite side. The plate should be molded so that the lower side of the shotgun mag fits snugly and when the system is closed, the top portion of the mag presses firmly into the feeding tube of the hopup.
On the real topic: Has anyone considered using a completely electrical trigger/switch assembly and just moving a ver. 7 gearbox forward in the carbine. If you take the mechanical portion out of the gearbox via a modified mosfet system, the actual trigger would not have to even be attached to the gearbox. I don't know the actual dimensions but it could work if it didn't throw off the alignment of the magazine and hopup. Just a thought.
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kalbs
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Post by kalbs on Nov 23, 2008 9:01:44 GMT -5
He's the nicest guy and all that- but it seems like he is hiding behind the fact that he is in the Philippines and his access to 'real' gun parts is limited- Don't really understand how that would effect a slide rule or measuring tape though.......... Who's he kidding Sir Guiness? The Philippines is full of real steel and lots of WW2 guns to boot, including Carbines, M1's, BAR's and tommys. I've seen them there myself. As a matter of fact the Army keeps confiscating them from the NPA up north and the Muslims in the South. Stacks of them, and believe me they make it to the market.
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Post by supernube on Nov 23, 2008 10:54:32 GMT -5
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Sgt_Tom
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Post by Sgt_Tom on Nov 23, 2008 12:47:26 GMT -5
AZR needs to do some work on there stock.
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KRaddatz
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Post by KRaddatz on Nov 23, 2008 13:39:39 GMT -5
AZR needs to just quit while they're at it.
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Post by supernube on Nov 23, 2008 16:05:56 GMT -5
They are not that bad. The wood on mine looks fine. They aren't perfect out of the box, but with a little work they look great from 5 feet away. If I could borrow a real one, or marushin, to compare side-by-side, I could probably get it even closer.
Besides, you're never going to get a perfect replica converting from a M14. The motor won't allow a perfect grip section and the mag loading is completely different.
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Sgt_Tom
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Post by Sgt_Tom on Nov 23, 2008 16:54:13 GMT -5
Well the big problem on there stock is the trigger assembly its lower then the rest of the stock which looks not so good.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 23, 2008 21:26:37 GMT -5
Actually the stock width at the trigger assembly is pretty darn close. I'm not sure why they opted for the bulge directly in front of the trigger assembly as it is entirely uneccessary and distracting. As supernube said the rifle looks fine at a distance and given that so few parties seem willing to even make an effort toward building WW2 weapons I for one am not going to be too harsh with any critisisms.
No one is going to mistake it for anything but a Garand and it sure beats the heck out of a burlap wrapped M16 or even an unmodified M14 for that matter. Eventually you could grind down the stock shape in front of the trigger assembly into a correct shape and add a complete gas assembly and your rifle in my opinion would look truly outstanding.
Take heart in knowing that as it is, it looks way better than most peoples Garand AEGs since actually few people have them and soldier on. Thanks for sharing the pictures. It's true that when using an M14 receiver group and base rifle you're never going to be perfect but with care and effort you can come pretty close.
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Sgt_Tom
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Post by Sgt_Tom on Nov 23, 2008 22:21:07 GMT -5
I think AZR's gas cylinder and front handguard are wrong because if they made them longer modification to the barrel would be needed and they want to sell there kits so they can be applied to the M14 with no modification. So all AZR has to do is make a custom barrel and then they could improve there other parts. It would also be nice if he molded an M1 Garand receiver to top it off.
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Post by supernube on Nov 23, 2008 23:47:07 GMT -5
Well after looking at a few garand pictures, I did decide that a little grinding was neccessary. In it's original form, the stock just ahead of the trigger group abruptly ends in a right angle. I took a little off the edges so thatat the transition into the trigger isn't so harsh. Pics will be up eventually. If anyone is selling a real gas assembly dirt cheap, let me know.
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Post by ramborob17 on Nov 24, 2008 12:26:06 GMT -5
I agree that they are a little off but such harsh criticism isn't appropriate for this topic. Everyone on this forum moans and groans about there not being enough conversions out there. Now people like this company are taking interest in giving you guys conversions and increasing your choices in populating your WWII arsenals. Please don't post cutting comments on his work. If you are really concerned about how his conversions look and want to help him out shoot him an email with suggestions. Personally I encourage any further conversion ideas that he has. If the M1 Carbine is an effective conversion I will end up buying it. I personally enjoy my M1 because it is like 2nd bat said "better then a m16 wrapped in burlap" even though it is not an identical mirror image of a real M1 Garand.
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Sgt_Tom
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Post by Sgt_Tom on Nov 24, 2008 13:04:03 GMT -5
Yea AZR has potential he just needs to do some work on it. A lot of people have tried to convince him to improve his products but for some reason(unknown) he doesn't want to. But yes its better then a burlaped M16.
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Post by tharock on Nov 24, 2008 13:41:18 GMT -5
I agree that they are a little off but such harsh criticism isn't appropriate for this topic. Everyone on this forum moans and groans about there not being enough conversions out there. Now people like this company are taking interest in giving you guys conversions and increasing your choices in populating your WWII arsenals. Please don't post cutting comments on his work. If you are really concerned about how his conversions look and want to help him out shoot him an email with suggestions. Personally I encourage any further conversion ideas that he has. If the M1 Carbine is an effective conversion I will end up buying it. I personally enjoy my M1 because it is like 2nd bat said "better then a m16 wrapped in burlap" even though it is not an identical mirror image of a real M1 Garand. Amen.
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