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Post by spitfire740 on Jan 2, 2010 23:47:23 GMT -5
Well, I now realize this topic needs to be discussed since it is clear there are many people here who feel that the WW2 Airsoft Association is about shooting your friends and having it WW2 themed. I want to point out first that everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I would like to know where everyone else stands on the matter. I know there are alot of people here who don't like me, but I think I have the right to be heard since I have been a member here for a very very long time. And I wouldn't be here now unless I cared about this place. I get very angry when I see that people prefer to have large numbers in attendance at an event than to have things be historically accurate. People who feel that it is acceptable for a member to have an impression consisting of a Swedish tunic, Spanish civil war helmet, and modern day US boots as "acceptable" is offensive to reenactors, and who we call ourselves. There is a reason why the age limit is 16 on the bylaws. It is important for a member to be able to have a job to put money into their impression. There is a reason why we have an Axis/Allied "Im working on it Thread." So people can tell them what to IMPROVE on. Is WW2 airsoft just a game? Or is it more than that. I personally feel that it is supposed to be grasping a concept of making blank fire tacticals more realistic. It is a way of using period tactics and formations while keeping our passion of reenacting (which largely deals with COMPLETE accuracy). Why do we spend hundreds if not thousands of dollars on impressions and airsoft guns that "Look real" if we would be playing on the same field as a kid who bought his outfit from Walmart. I feel a major importance is to respect the soldiers who fought and have fun doing it. I now see that there are people with the opinion that nobody needs to improve their impressions when their OD's are woodland camo and with hicap mags for their thomspsons allowed. And if this is what everyone believes then this is not something I want to be a part of... After 5 years of thinking thats what we are about. I will stick with the events here in Illinois, and I plan on attending an MOA event because I think those guys got the right idea. They have the vehicles to prove it! But I would advise no one to come here looking for a more realistic perspective of the Second World War, except for kids with no income who just want to play real life Call of Duty. Historical Accuracy > high numbers of participants any day in my book. (mods: Please don't lock thread, I dont see this turning into an argument) I dont plan on responding at all . I've said my opinion and I want to see that of other people. If no one responds I'll take it as Ww2aa going to hell, and will peace out of here Thank you
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Post by shadycadence on Jan 3, 2010 10:38:14 GMT -5
Sorry, but I reject your premise that it has to be 100% accurate, or it's anything goes. This is simply not the case. Loose restrictions does not automatically mean high-capped AK's and woodland. Relaxing restrictions is one way to get new players to come out and try it. Does that mean anyone is allowed at any event? Of course not. Your all or nothing attitude seems foolhardy imo. Do you love WW2Airsoft? Do you want it to grow? One of the biggest draws of period airsoft in general is the historical aspect of the kit. Anyone with even a passing interest in history will be drawn to it. So how do you expose them to it? As I see it, there's two ways; 1- hold or attend a "themed" event with loose restrictions to let non-period players feel what it's like to "time travel", or 2-attend a non-WW2 game in your WW2 kit.(tends to raise quite a few eyebrows if your impression happens to be German) I have done both in an effort to spread the "WW2 goodness", as it were. I suspect you have not, but you should try to. You can catch them at that crucial moment of having not wasted any money on inaccurate farb crap, and could guide them toward a quality impression. If you lead with a strong example, others will follow you into hell. If you lead with strong criticism, you will go to hell alone. I share your vision of 100% accuracy, but realize there's a road to travel in order to get there. Life is about compromise. I don't feel that one guy holding "themed" events in an area with no period playerbase is going to undermine or harm our events in any way. On the contrary, anything that sparks interest is a start. If no one responds I'll take it as Ww2aa going to hell, and will peace out of here I'm not sure what transpired to invoke such ire, but I humbly request that you just relax, do your thing the way you want to do it, and encourage others to do the same.
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Post by Fusilier on Jan 3, 2010 11:25:18 GMT -5
All I'll say,is I'm on your side Spitfire.
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Lev
Private 1st Class
Posts: 454
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Post by Lev on Jan 3, 2010 11:51:36 GMT -5
I think you're all vehemently agreeing with one another:) Shady's point is that it's not worth getting fired up about. The best way to support authenticity is to lead by example and support quality events. Yelling at people and calling them farbs is not a constructive way of promoting the hobby. That attitude is toxic. Vote with your money and feet.
We look forward to seeing you at an MOA event Spitfire!
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CptJericho
Private 1st Class
"We got to stop the Germans from getting the secret weapons!"
Posts: 495
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Post by CptJericho on Jan 3, 2010 12:19:21 GMT -5
This is my opinion: At the start when you have 2-4 people, have loose standards like 40-50% (because we all know its not fun to play a match 1v1 or 2v2) to try to get more people to join. when you have 5-10 then you can start getting a bit stricter like 60%-70%, but when you get to 10-20 people then you can get very strict like 80%-90%(remember if they have been there from the beginning then they should have a pretty decent kit by then) and finally when you get to 25 and above then you can go 90%-100%.
I agree authenticity is very important, but is it worth only having a 2v2 game every Saturday? or have loose standards at the beginning then getting stricter as more people join, then finally having very authentic looking impressions with tons of people to reenact scenario? but tell me this, which is more historically accurate? having a 2v2 skirmish, or a 10v10 battle?
If you lead with your 90%-100% then other people will strive to have a kit as good as yours (because it looks cool and they look like crap). Remember the loose standards are only til people start coming in, then it can become strict.
All im saying is you have to build a foundation before you can build the building. Even the new WW2 museum in new orleans was Flaggrantly Wrong with its electrical wiring and new 21st century architecture, or the yellow bulldozers outside, it only became stitch knot see approved once the building was built and the items came in. what your suggesting is that you take all the items and build a building around it, and that doesnt work.
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Post by volkssturm on Jan 3, 2010 20:38:06 GMT -5
It's a big world. There's room for multiple opinions. If you (and/or your group) are hosting an event, you set the rules. If you want 100% accuracy, go for it. Just be ready to accept that you might be "An army of one". If another group is willing to compromise because they want to include more people, that's their call. You're entitled to your opinion, but you're not entitled to get in their face about it, just as they're not entitled to get in your face when you're making the rules. I think it's great that some people are commited enough to try for absolute accuracy. Good for you. But it's also not for everyone. Just a personal observation. When you're a broken down old fart like me with arthritis in your feet, and the choice is accurate boots and being in pain all day, or modern boots and being able to walk all day, well, when that day comes make your own choice.
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oberst42
Private
"Oh du Deutschland, ich muss marschieren!"
Posts: 387
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Post by oberst42 on Jan 3, 2010 21:13:11 GMT -5
we should lax restrictions for new guys, let them start out and see if they're interested
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Post by Garrick Udet on Jan 4, 2010 12:44:17 GMT -5
When new members begin creating an impression, it is important to instill a kaizen (continuous improvement) philosophy in them. Guide them towards the right stuff to buy (so they don't have to buy the same piece of kit twice), and work with them on prioritizing areas for improvement. I think it is more important to drive historical accuracy at the individual level rather than the group.
This is why we allow partisan impressions at our events. It lets people get a taste for the hobby without having to plunk down a huge amount of dough.
Weapons are the one area where I'm not in favor of loose standards. As the offerings of WWII airsoft guns grow, there's more than enough sub-$150 guns out there for a beginner to get one.
As far as gaming vs. re-enacting, I'm on the gamer side of the fence I guess. But the idea that there has to be a trade-off between gaming and historical accuracy is a false one.
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Post by springfieldarmory on Jan 5, 2010 16:22:09 GMT -5
I agree, it's not like your going to have all or none. As long as they are showing effort to have a good impression, they should be able to participate. 15 or twenty GI's with decent impressions fighting 10 or 15 Germans with decent impressions would look much better than like 3 paratroopers and a ranger with perfect impressions fighting 2 Germans with perfect impressions.
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petermartin14
Private 1st Class
RIP Arne Andersson- Sweden's Finest
Posts: 639
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Post by petermartin14 on Jan 5, 2010 16:24:10 GMT -5
i think thats more like it.
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Post by sarge12 on Jan 5, 2010 17:28:07 GMT -5
so this uniform is not acceptable Attachments:
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Post by Fusilier on Jan 5, 2010 17:30:30 GMT -5
In my blank fore units,we don't let you go to an event with a half ass impression. We have high standards, and don't like to compromise. We tell anyone who's interested in joining what our standards are,and what is expected of them.If they have the right mindset and drive,great,if not,no biggie,have a nice day. We're not in it for the numbers like so many other units are. We'd rather have 5 awesome impressions than 15 half ass impressions just to get out there with as many guys as we can.
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Post by sarge12 on Jan 5, 2010 17:38:57 GMT -5
okay, what else do i need though, i dont wont to spend $200 on some brown service boots right now but what else do i need?
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Post by springfieldarmory on Jan 5, 2010 18:16:29 GMT -5
That looks fine for a start, you can always refine it later.
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Post by sarge12 on Jan 5, 2010 21:27:40 GMT -5
Well can i get into any skirmishes with it?
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Post by CharleyNovember on Jan 5, 2010 21:50:55 GMT -5
People should strive for 100% accuracy in their uniforms personally. People that put on events should ask attendees to work towards 100% but accept that some people are at different levels in making a complete impression. The WW2AA used to have a guideline built on colors that represented how authentic a game would be. that has since been removed for some strange reason. Now it has been changed to all or nothing. I don't agree with this apporach but it is what it is. All event producers on these boards produce games the way they see fit I don't see that changing. I do see WW2 airsoft becoming more accurate as we move forward.
Sarge ~ You could come to my open games, but not the invite only games yet. We have two open games a year. It looks like you have a start to an impression. Once you get to an open game and play then you will be even more excited to get more correct gear and I am sure you will beg your parents for it for bdays and xmas. I am not sure your parents would drive you to Athens GA for a game though. If they are willing to bring you and stay with you you are welcome to attend the one we are having at the end of Feb.
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Sgt_Tom
Technical Sgt.
Combat!
Posts: 3,580
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Post by Sgt_Tom on Jan 5, 2010 22:49:15 GMT -5
Personally I think a lot of people are way to harsh. You have to realize your dealing with humans and I don't think its right to just go ticking people off for the sake of authenticity. I want everyone to strive for authenticity, but I don't expect everyone too. Everyone is different and no one has the same opinions so its silly to go to an event thinking it will all go exactly the way you want it, it won't happen. Thats life.
I have lax rules in my organization for new guys. I have my limits as how far I'll go before I say no and my rules will get stricter as we get more people with full impressions.
Usually people who really don't have a lot of interest in history and improving there impression will just fade away and leave after a while. They just want to get a kit bought and done so they can come out to an event. Then after a while they get bored and sell it off. Flash in the pan ;D
Some people aren't like that though and have been in the hobby for a long time and still are Flaggrantly Wrong. Well most of them love collecting gear and some own vehicles and such. They just never take the time to research and build a good impression. They just like to come to events and show off there stuff or bust blanks. I think a lot of these people would go the necessary step if they were pushed or events tightened there rules up.
For new guys pretty much anything is acceptable and we can help them a lot with loaner gear and weapons. With guys who have been in over a year I'll make a limit that they have to reach before we say they can't come.
For a person with a year membership Lets say for US Infantry you at least have to aquire.
WWII Belt(Pistol belt or Cartridge Belt) Canteen and Cover First Aid pouch Wool Shirt Field Jacket(M43 or M41) Pants(can be post-war) boots(can be modern ones that look ok or French) helmet(can be rear seam) WWII Airsoft Weapon (I would not allow someone like this to come to a Living History Event though)
Really if anyone thinks that is asking to much you really need to find a different hobby. This will of course not be encouraged or will I allow anyone like this into my 3rd ID unit. However I will allow them to come to my events.
So what I am saying is you have to be nice and understanding to new guys. You never know who you could be throwing away. You do have to draw the line some where though.
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Lev
Private 1st Class
Posts: 454
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Post by Lev on Jan 6, 2010 14:12:41 GMT -5
Some people aren't like that though and have been in the hobby for a long time and still are Flaggrantly Wrong. Well most of them love collecting gear and some own vehicles and such. They just never take the time to research and build a good impression. They just like to come to events and show off there stuff or bust blanks. I think a lot of these people would go the necessary step if they were pushed or events tightened there rules up. My experience has been that the "old timers" who obviously have the money to do things right (but don't) are not salvageable. These particular types of people are often at the center of many group fisures and lead to break-ups and hard feelings. They also give birth to the "cranky hardcore" attitude (of which I was once a proud subscriber). I'd steer clear of these folks if you can. They bring only pain and frustration.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Jan 6, 2010 14:43:05 GMT -5
I subscribe to the policy of progressively enhanced expectations. A new candidate who is trying the hobby out to see if the interest is there is generously supplemented by others to adhere to at least a minimally acceptable standard according to the expectations of the group. You quickly discover the folks who shun the offers and go with comfort or convenience at the expense of authenticity in spite of the assistance of others. If allowed these are the folks who will continue to come with a casual effort and become the long standing folks who compromise at the expense of others experience.
The vast majority of folks who attend early and experience the welcoming spirit rather than the all too common condescenting scorn of the grizzled indoctrinated adherent if the hobby is right for them, stay and continually build on their impressions to the point where many of them become the loaners of extra gear and welcoming community members for the new file of hobbyists.
I was so put off by the snobbery and boorishness of the first two reenactor groups I sought out years ago that it's a wonder I now count myself somewhat among them. Hopefully I never become the overly anal critiques of others they came across as.
We walk a fine line as we attempt to attract others to our hobby. High expectations are admirable if conveyed well. All too often high standards are a shield I think we hide behind. There is a huge difference between, "knowing alot" and being a "know it all."
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ersatzjack2
Private 1st Class
"We can still win this thing, once the secret weapons arrive."
Posts: 612
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Post by ersatzjack2 on Jan 6, 2010 16:33:27 GMT -5
There is a huge difference between, "knowing alot" and being a "know it all." Yeah...., I know.
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petermartin14
Private 1st Class
RIP Arne Andersson- Sweden's Finest
Posts: 639
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Post by petermartin14 on Jan 6, 2010 17:40:29 GMT -5
Well can i get into any skirmishes with it? i think your fine for NOW.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Jan 7, 2010 0:13:50 GMT -5
Two of the most knowledgeable and perfectionistic people I know in the hobby have been Schmitty and Adler and we're blessed to have them both here in the NW. In spite of their knowledge and high standards they share what they know in an extremely helpful, generous way that is truly inspiring. The result is folks get to learn from them and never feel either intimidated or overwhealmed by them. I know they must be grimacing when they see some of the things that show up but the move is always to assist not berate. I have learned alot from them especially since I, with my full, greying beard was someone who they effectively influenced. Now I grimace when I see the old pictures. Thanks go out to all the guys like that.
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Adler69
Master sergeant
Legio Patria Nostra
Posts: 2,859
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Post by Adler69 on Jan 7, 2010 0:40:32 GMT -5
I try to help when i can, i like doing it , makes the hobby that much more fun for me when i can help someone.
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Post by dercommissar on Jan 7, 2010 1:32:50 GMT -5
Reading things from this community has inspired me to improve our group, even if the effort is going to be all uphill. I have toyed with the idea of creating a sub-unit for our group that would be essentially stitch/blank firing accurate kit wise; some of our members already are. The task is something that will probably cost us people in the long run when push comes to shove, as in some ways it may already have.
My only warning is that in general you should not go so far as to alienate people who potentially share your interest. The last thread, which may have inspired this one, almost made me feel the elitism I have seen in the blank firing community. Mind you only from one individual, everyone else I have encountered here has been really courteous and helpful. I do not think people should have to lower their standards if they do not want to. But, at the same time you should respect that others have to walk before they can run.
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Post by spitfire740 on Jan 8, 2010 16:39:47 GMT -5
I don't feel that anyone on this forum is an elitist (I do apologize dercommissar, It wasnt my intention to offend you). My stand point is that if there is an individual who wants to attend events starting out with a half-assed impression, then thats fine. But if he has no desire to improve his impression, than there is no benefit to the community (NOT SUGGESTING ANYTHING, I'm merely stating that in an organization based around making tacticals more realistic, I see a conflict) . Just my personal opinion :/
thanks for all the comments guys!
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