Luger question

[cairo1]

sounds good, keep in mind though SS tuics had 5 buttons while heer ones have 6 (except the M36 & M40 which have 5). if you are gooing to be a shutz, the lowest rank, which i recomend, idealy your belt will hold your Bread bag with a canteen, your gasmask can, a bayonet& frog, and K98 pouches. if you are going to be armed with an MP40 then drop tha frog and K98 pouches and run with MP40 pouches.

that red ribbon he has on his chest is an Iron cross Ribbon, I honestly cant tell the difrence between EK1 and EK2 ribbions. also teh white tress on his collar and shoulderbaords indicate he is an NCO. you guys will want to not have that and you will want black shoulder boards with white waffenfarbe.

[tommygunner9]

Yes, I plan to be an MP40 gunner. I will do that with the webgear. Would it be ok if I had the SS tabs on the right collar and something indicating he is an NCO on the left? Or no?

[gadge]

Okey dokey.

The picture I based it on if of a Heer feldwebel in Normandy moving up to the frontline. He was with 2nd panzer. There are small difference in my impression (the original guy has an m36 tunic on).

I'm wearing pouchs to carry ammo for an mp40 but there is no 'mp40 gunners gear' its the same webbing for everyone only the basic pouches change, the US army of WWII was probabably unique in having dedicated belts for weapons systems.

While *usually* cairo is right in the that the ss used 5 button tunics and the heer 6, dont get hung up on it as clothing shortages often meant arms of service made do with what they could get. But if you're buying new and have the choice he's right and it makes sense to buy the right one.

The pic i used was in a very well respected French publication called Militaria ( i swear by it but it depends on how good your French is...) where they recreate original photos with original kit.

Impression based off this series of photos and this recreation.







As i run an SS unit these days I've since changed the impression to pretty much what your going for by changing the collar tabs and adding a late war smock.



and with lid...

[gadge]

BTW its always a good idea to choose an age appropriate to your rank.

I'm in my mid 30s so as an NCO i tend to be a junior sgt or at least a corporal.

When i portray an officer it's usually a major as thats usually the rank you'd get to in either career path as a regular soldier by 36

Nothing looks sillier than 17 year old colonels or 16 year old 'sgts' tbh.

If you're young and I'm assuming you are then make the most of your youth by portraying the younger formations and ranks that look stupid if guys my age try them.

Be a 12th ss ober schutze, that would be cracking...

[gadge]

Oh, and the IKII ribbon, normally I dont agree with wearing unearned badges but in some cases impressions look wrong without them. On my SS scharfuhrer kit I tend to wear and infantry assault badge and an iron cross 2nd class as a phenominal ammount of them were awarded and it woudl be highly unlikely for a frontline NCO of that rank *not* to have them.

I also wear a black wound badge to represent a wound sustained in the British Army when i was much younger...

[tommygunner9]

Well remember, the impression is for my dad, he is going to be an NCO. Also, that last picture looks really good gadge! Props! But would it be appropriate to change the tunic you have on now for an M40?? Or no?

And my bad about the mp40 gunners gear comment, I just saw that term on atthefront (from what I recall) and just used it haha.

[gadge]

Any tunic will be fine as long as it predates the year of the impression you want.

[tommygunner9]

What is the name of the pants you have on?

[gadge]

They go by the name of 'Derek Carter'.



In all seriousness I think they are the later cut of feldgrau trousers cut for wearing with a belt but they could equally be earlier trousers with brace attachment buttons.

That pic was taken around 2009 and i've got three sets of fieldgrey so I cant be certain.

TBH the only visible difference is around the waistband that is 99 per cent of the time covered by the tunics skirt so its just a case of preference. I prefer a belt to braces personally.

[gadge]

The other thing you cant see if that for my SS impressions I usually wear an m40 overseas type cap as it makes you look more like an 'alte haas' (german for 'old hare' 'old hand' 'old sweat' ) whereas the new lads had newer M43s

Its the same in any army veterans tend to hang on to old issue belts/caps etc to distinguish themselves as being a longer standing soldier.



Thats my impresion of a 9th SS NCO at around the time of the battle for Arnhem. Our group were doing a display for my regiments museum.

[tommygunner9]

That's an awesome picture gadge! As for the pants, I was looking on Gavin militaria and I did not find any by that name. What I found were:

M37 field grey wool trousers
M37 stone grey trousers
and M43 field grey wool trousers

which is more appropriate?

[gadge]

Stone grey trousers are an army item really and worn during the battle for poland and france in 39/40, there are accounts of old stocks being used very late war to cover shortages (remember by 45 if it wasnt being produced in the east it was probably being bombed to bits before it left the factory.)

Again, as with earlier advice m37 trousers will be more useful than m43 ones as you can cover more war years. Be wary of using m designations, i'm pretty sure these are just 're-enactor' references. Its like 2am here and i'm in my living room, my books are in my study so i'll have a look for you tomorrow as to a decent pair of trousers to get as i'm off to bed now.

From memory I think the german for the early war trousers is 'kielhose' but i'm not sure if thats just the early types cut for braces.

essentially it depends on your fathers build, if hes a big guy he might find the m37 types with braces more comfortable, if hes average build or just prefers a belt on his trousers he'll probably find later war ones comfier.

[tommygunner9]

I would really appreciate that gadge! Thank you! And my dad wants to avoid every kind of camo, that's why I wanted to know because in your picture, the trousers are camo, so I wanted to know if it was still appropriate. I'm glad to see that it is!

[gadge]

I have to say my advice to buy some books before you buy kit still stands.

The camo trousers i'm wearing in the last pic are part of the dot44 oversuit issued in march 44 and withdrawn from issue in the winter of 44. They can be worn on their own or as an oversuit in winter.

Essentially think of it like this. The german army makes a pre war tunic and trousers, it has high standards and is easily able to make loads of kit. It then goes to war with eveyone else in the galaxy and starts running short on things. New tunics are designed over the years with the main impetut being to save materiels and be more economic, but the old ones are kept in stock untill they are litterally undervicable.

Thats why early tunics have shaped pockers, dark green collars and other unnecesary trim and late war ones are cut high waisted in all field grey (usually from recycled tunics) and have straight cut patch pockets that are quick and easy to make.

If you cant or wont buy some reference books before splashing out what coudl be up to 1000 dollars then at least go to your local library and look at a lot of books on german Uniform, if they dont have them in then they can order them in for you.

You *wont* find everything you want to know on the internet easily. You'll have to sift through a lot of bad advice, read between the lines of sellers adverts among other pitfalls.

There is no shortcut to research and reading and you really need to be doing this before spending lots of money.

[tommygunner9]

Yeah that's true. Don't think i won't do my research about this stuff. It's just hat I have received a lot of help from here so I like to ask here. You have been very helpful gadge, and for that I am very thankful for. I will read and then if I have any questions still, post them.

I plan on posting pictures of everything I plan to purchase before purchasing to have a final review and confirmation. I will post the pictures as soon as I get home. But i leave with a question: SS units did have an all grey service uniform right? Consisting of possible the M40 tunic and M37 tousers? Not the officers, but like the infantry. Every picture I see of infantry has camo trousers.

[tommygunner9]

Here is an example:


Notice the guy with the mp40 on the left. That is EXACTLY what I want minus the iron cross ribbon.

[gadge]

Yeah thats my mate Dave who runs the UK WWII airsoft boards 'Chomley Warner'. Those pics weretaken around 2004 and we've come a *long* way since then,

Dont base your impression on an airsofter/re-enactor , base it on a selection of photographs.

You'l note Dave there is a sturmbahnfuhrer (major) and probably a it high ranked to be running around clearing streets. They were promo shots for the second ever wwii event we ran 'Arnhem'.

[gadge]

Yes they had a field grey uniform.
In about 1938 the major in charge of the assault engineering unit arranged for camo zelthbanhs tobe hand printed, i think they managed to make about 8000 and a similar number of helmet covers. SOme smocks were made and each assault company was supposed to ave at least 20 to hand out to storm units.

Late a machine printing way was found so the smock became more common but still not universal. The SS also patented their patterns so the army coudnt copy them!

The fieldgrey uniform was still the standard for the majority of the ss.

Smocks are expensive to make and a cheaper oversuit was made (the dott 44 one) whihc ws intended to replace combat smocks and drill fatigue uniforms. It was not very durable ao wthdrawn from issue in october/november 44.

All the time field grey is still the standard.

You see a lot of pics of camo trousers as re-enactors and airsofter love it as 'camo = elite' in thier minds and they obsess about having 'matching' camo even buying items that never existed (peadot field caps and helmet covers) just so they can match.

Thats why i say use period pics, re-enactors rarely get it right, my kit is far from perfect.

One reason forthe commonality of camo trousers and wool top is that its comfier and more like wearing a normal jacket and trousers to do this in summer as the trousers are thinner but our upper body still stays warm in the evnieng with a wool coat.

Personally i tend to wear mine as over trousers as intended.

Here again with the full suit over feldgrau for an ardennes look.

Note its 45 so gaiters and ankle boots (im using modern brit ones there which are clearly wrong)

[gadge]

Note I *would* try and show you correct period photos but I have them all in book and while I like to be helpful I simply havnt got the time to scan them in or trawl the internet looking for appropriate pics and uploading them to photobucket, i'm afraid if i dont have a pic to illustrate in my albums thats it..

[tommygunner9]

Hmm, so having the impression like your friend Dave would be wrong then? What if I switched his rank to something lower?

[gadge]

It's not totally wrong. What i'm sayingis base your impression on a representative period photo. Not another airsofter.

99 per cent of people make mistake sor cut corners with their impressions to a degree... by basing your kit on anothers interpretation rather than a primary source you're just compounding innacurracies.

[gadge]

For example *this*

mg-34.com/images/stories/photo/25.08.2011/german%20sergeant.jpg

Is a much better base to launch your impression off than my heer feldwebel impression as this is a primary source, this guy existed and its 100 per cent correct.

My tunic is similar to his but there are difference but this gives you an idea of the sort of awards a sgt might have been wearing and how he looked.

*here* a seleion of waffen ss NCOs, note how few have jackboots and the only one who clearly wears them is a 'spiess' which is like a regimental st major or the duty nco responsible for discpline

3.bp.blogspot.com/-JGC36T7yxkA/TuWrUJpvAqI/AAAAAAAAHtw/cIGkN9LbTLc/s1600/waffen-SS-001.jpg

Choose one of those Sgts, look like him....

[tommygunner9]

Hmm, they saw action am I correct? I also noticed they are wearing belts and no web gear. In the picture with your buddy Dave, he had his webgear.

[Sgt_Tom]

Those guys aren't in a combat situation that is why they aren't wearing helmets or web gear. Thats why you can't base your impression off of a single picture.

[aj czarkowski]

Most of the time in combat they would loose their extra gear because it really is hard lugging all that crap around when in battle. Then they would go fetch it later, so it is best to do an impression of them in combat.

[gadge]

Sorry, i didnt mention that as I thought it was blindingly obvious they didnt have field gear on.

However like Sgt Tom says, if you saw those guys in combat they would *in general* be wearing the same tunics and trousers, boots and anklets but with steel helmets and pouches hanging off the belt.

Seriously spend an hour or two looking at a couple of hundred period pics, learn to recognise SS ranks from one of the many hundred website that list them all and see what the *average* ss nco wore.

I found the above pics in 2 seconds just googling 'feldgrau wwii german sgt'

I can only echo what sgt tom says, dont base your impression of a single picture - you might have picked the one unique and only time that happened in wwii. I was just trying to show you what a slection of waffen ss ncos wore and the variations you see within the same rank (different boots, headgear, awards etc).

To give you a good example there is a very well known pic of a british airborne soldier at arnhme with an M1 carbine.

Loads of re-enactors use it as a week excuse to use their carbine rather than buying a sten or bren or no4.

It is the *only* picture of an m1 in british use at Arnhem out of *7000* men there.

However I have seen at least ten re-enactors trying this 'impression' which makes it historically grossly misleading. (for the record *no* m1 carbines were issued to british airborne and its a total mystery how he got it but at Arnhem ammo was so scarce you used whatever you could find and had ammo for until it ran out... its an *exceptional* situation.

Basically

DONT base your impression off a re-enactor or airsofter. (take my SS nco impression, its average to poor... a good SS living history re-enactor could pull it to pieces but I rarely do shows with it mainly private battles... my brit kit i wear to shows in probably 100 per cent accurate and mostly original.

DONT base your impression on one cool photo

DONT base your impression off toy soldiers

DO remember you're looking at investing up to 1000 dollars in an impression... $10 on a book is small fry in comparison and spending a few *days* looking at original pics and reading the more credible websites is free. I normally dont recommend vendors websites as they are obviously trying to sell you something but 'at the front' is accurate, informative, funny and will probably help you avoid buying the really Flaggrantly Wrong stuff.

These guys

www.sbg1.mistral.co.uk/


are the best there is at WWII waffen ss to be honest.

Read their website, you will probably learn a hell of a lot.

(They are the guys in 'saving private ryan' btw... you can read how they were annoyed when the film twisted history on their site)

[tommygunner9]

Mar 30, 2012 17:49:13 GMT -5 gadge said:

Sorry, i didnt mention that as I thought it was blindingly obvious they didnt have field gear on.

However like Sgt Tom says, if you saw those guys in combat they would *in general* be wearing the same tunics and trousers, boots and anklets but with steel helmets and pouches hanging off the belt.

Seriously spend an hour or two looking at a couple of hundred period pics, learn to recognise SS ranks from one of the many hundred website that list them all and see what the *average* ss nco wore.

I found the above pics in 2 seconds just googling 'feldgrau wwii german sgt'

I can only echo what sgt tom says, dont base your impression of a single picture - you might have picked the one unique and only time that happened in wwii. I was just trying to show you what a slection of waffen ss ncos wore and the variations you see within the same rank (different boots, headgear, awards etc).

To give you a good example there is a very well known pic of a british airborne soldier at arnhme with an M1 carbine.

Loads of re-enactors use it as a week excuse to use their carbine rather than buying a sten or bren or no4.

It is the *only* picture of an m1 in british use at Arnhem out of *7000* men there.

However I have seen at least ten re-enactors trying this 'impression' which makes it historically grossly misleading. (for the record *no* m1 carbines were issued to british airborne and its a total mystery how he got it but at Arnhem ammo was so scarce you used whatever you could find and had ammo for until it ran out... its an *exceptional* situation.

Basically

DONT base your impression off a re-enactor or airsofter. (take my SS nco impression, its average to poor... a good SS living history re-enactor could pull it to pieces but I rarely do shows with it mainly private battles... my brit kit i wear to shows in probably 100 per cent accurate and mostly original.

DONT base your impression on one cool photo

DONT base your impression off toy soldiers

DO remember you're looking at investing up to 1000 dollars in an impression... $10 on a book is small fry in comparison and spending a few *days* looking at original pics and reading the more credible websites is free. I normally dont recommend vendors websites as they are obviously trying to sell you something but 'at the front' is accurate, informative, funny and will probably help you avoid buying the really Flaggrantly Wrong stuff.

These guys

www.sbg1.mistral.co.uk/


are the best there is at WWII waffen ss to be honest.

Read their website, you will probably learn a hell of a lot.

(They are the guys in 'saving private ryan' btw... you can read how they were annoyed when the film twisted history on their site)

Then technically it would be correct to get an all grey uniform with web gear, helmet, mp40, jack boots, and the SS collar tabs.

[Sgt_Tom]

Wait what? Those guys uniforms are field-grey which is a greyish green color. Actual grey uniforms were only worn very early in the war. Not very common later on. Just go a standard field grey tunic and trousers.

[aj czarkowski]

M43s work the best, and I guarante there won't be any events earlier than June 1944.

What you menioned would be correct, but the color tabs depend on what specific division on the SS your father is portraying. Of course the web gear is more technical (What is most important, what was used later on) Past 1943ish there weren't too many gas masks on your suspenders since by then the realized there wasn't going to be any gas warfare at that point, even if the paratroopers on D-day jumped with them. Belt, canteen, and ammo pouches are the three most important. Breadbag can be just as important as the pouches depending on where you put your ammo(My kar98 clips don't fit in the pouches)Suspenders are a good thing to have, even if you have nothing on them it gives you a more experienced look. An A-Frame bag also not as important, but acts like the equivilant of our Mussett bags.

[Sgt_Tom]

Actually M42's would be the best option. Looking at Normandy pictures M42s and M40s still seem to be the most common. M43s are a bit later.