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Post by kingraptor141 on May 14, 2012 3:38:56 GMT -5
2 Questions
1: How common was the C96 or "Broom Handle" hand gun in the second world war, common enough to be seen on soldiers from time to time or more keep sakes from an officer's father who served in the great war?
2: Who was given a handgun, that is, rank wise (I assume that's how it would be decided), what rank would one have to be to be given a handgun, and what would it most likely be? (I'm assuming the P. 38 since it phased out the Luger)
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Sgt_Tom
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Post by Sgt_Tom on May 14, 2012 11:20:31 GMT -5
The Broom handle was a pretty uncommon item to see in WW2. Certainly not the norm.
As for who got issued a pistol, squad leaders, officers, MG gunners, MG gunner assistants were issued a P-38 or K98, and sometimes medics.
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Post by volkssturm on May 14, 2012 14:28:27 GMT -5
Just a side note: Like everything else, the Germans were hard pressed to find enough pistols for everyone who was supposed to have one, so they reissued a lot of handguns from the occupied countries. The Belgian FN made P-35 or Browning Hi-Power was fairly widely issued as the Pistole 640(b). A German carrying a 640(b) would probably be much more commonly seen than one carrying a C-96.
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Post by jimmiroquai on May 15, 2012 22:22:34 GMT -5
Although rare, it did happen. If you've got it, use it, if you want to.  There's another pic somewhere out there of a landser with the complete wood stock and all. |
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cairo1
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Post by cairo1 on May 16, 2012 2:59:54 GMT -5
That picture contains an M712, a rare pistol by any standard. teh C96 is more common then people want to admit. i have seen a few pictures with one in them, my favorit is one where the man has it stuffed into his jackboot.
it was also a comon pistol for teh red army as well. infact that famous staged picture of the dudes holding the flag over the Reichstag, one of them has a C96 Bolo.
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Sgt_Tom
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Post by Sgt_Tom on May 16, 2012 7:22:35 GMT -5
The thing is were are trying to portray what normally happened. What was the most common. Realize one picture is almost meaningless compared to the number of people that were in the SS.
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Post by shiftsup on May 16, 2012 16:58:28 GMT -5
Aren't a lot of the pics of wehrmacht soldiers with schnellfeuers early war (1940 invasion of Holland, Belgium and France) ?
Most of the soldiers aren't wearing Y straps in the pics I have seen.
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Sgt_Tom
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Post by Sgt_Tom on May 16, 2012 18:05:33 GMT -5
Lack of Y-straps would point to that as they weren't issued until 1941 I believe.
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cairo1
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Post by cairo1 on May 17, 2012 2:50:41 GMT -5
look at photos from the invasion of poland many of those men have Y straps. Furthermore some units (such as the one i potray) had very limated issues of Y staps. less tehn 35% of teh 6th SS had Y straps. and yes, before you ask that figure is counting supply units.
in pictures i have seen as early as 44 on the western front. thos only men wearign Y straps eith have camo smocks or trench coats, and evient then not all do.
Do not base thing on the presance of Y straps is waht im saying.
The C96 is an atractive pistol, not only that but it was more common in the german civilian market. However there are no C96s on the market, just M712s Which were then and are now VERY RARE.
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Post by jimmiroquai on May 17, 2012 4:47:56 GMT -5
Sgt_Tom - i agree with you, all i'm saying is, if he's got it already, or if it's his favorite pistol, then by all means he can use it and still be period accurate.
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Sgt_Tom
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Post by Sgt_Tom on May 17, 2012 9:11:08 GMT -5
For a few events but I'd highly suggest he look into buying something that was more common.
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Post by volkssturm on May 17, 2012 11:06:20 GMT -5
I think the universal answer to all military questions applies here - "It depends on the situaiton." If you're going for a historical reenactment, then try to be as close to the textbook uniform etc. as possible. If you're just doing an airsoft game, then anything that might have been used is fair game. Soldiers in combat could care less about the official TO&E. They'll use anything they can borrow, scrounge or steal if they think it'll help them.
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Sgt_Tom
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Post by Sgt_Tom on May 17, 2012 11:35:57 GMT -5
I don't agree. The "do whatever you want its just airsoft" attitude is what gives airsoft a bad name in the reenacting community. C96's were not even being made during WW2. They stopped production in 1937. Using an MP40 is somewhat unrealistic as the average soldat would have been issued a Kar98, using a C96 is just 10 times worse. At least it isn't a post-war weapon but I still wouldn't use it. Unless your an officer, MG assistant, MG gunner, or NCO I wouldn't use a pistol in the first place. That is assuming your doing infantry impression. The question you have to ask yourself is how realistic do you want to be. Its your choice in the end but the truth is hardly anyone carried them.
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Post by jimmiroquai on May 17, 2012 18:35:46 GMT -5
By "realistic" do you mean "actually happened"? Because the broom handle was actually used. That's my point. It isn't "airsofter attitude" in this case because it is still period accurate. In wartime photos, it was usually just one soldier with the broomhandle, yes. Yes, other pistols were more common. But in all probability, some quirky quartermaster did issue this pistol. I mean, there is actual wartime photographic evidence. But say for example you were that veteran who used the pistol during the war, and you see all these comments about it not being realistic...but it actually is. And it was used by infantry, not some hoity-toity general like Patton and his Colt SAAs. But to answer the TS question, they were not common, very rare in fact, but judging from pics, yes they were used in ww2. But don't go forming a unit all issued with broomhandles...now that would be very "airsofter".  |
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Post by Sgt_Tom on May 17, 2012 20:01:11 GMT -5
It is unrealistic because it is uncommon. Some guy on another WW2 reenacting forum mentioned using his cartridge belt(edit I mean B.A.R belt) for M1 Garand ammo. He said that way he could carry more ammo. Was it done? Probably but it would still be Flaggrantly Wrong. There is another case of a paratrooper wearing an assault vest. There is photographic evidence but it would still be Flaggrantly Wrong as it was very uncommon. Good photographic evidence is seeing a few different pictures from the division your portraying doing the same thing from the time period your portraying. Oddball photos are just pretty meaningless.
I wouldn't have a hard attack if someone took a C96 to and event but I certainly wouldn't as I am trying to portray an average soldat. If everyone went and did the oddball stuff you'd have one poor looking group of reenactors.
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Post by aj czarkowski on May 17, 2012 21:37:52 GMT -5
It is unrealistic because it is uncommon. Some guy on another WW2 reenacting forum mention using his cartridge belt for M1 Garand ammo. He said that way he could carry more ammo. Was it done? Probably but it would still be Flaggrantly Wrong. Cartridge belts were built specifically for M1 Garand ammo, that's actually what they were issued for As for the C96 Mauser, it was very uncommon. But yes, it was still used so it's not completely unrealistic. But when there's a squad with most of them armed with the C96, then it's unrealistic |
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Sgt_Tom
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Post by Sgt_Tom on May 17, 2012 21:47:00 GMT -5
Doesn't matter what they were specifically built for the thing both items share is both were not commonly done or seen. Its not the norm. Portraying the norm is what makes us realistic. Like I said if everyone did oddball stuff it would seriously detract from events. I try to portray the average soldier not the 1 out of 1000 guy. Like I said do whatever you want its your kit, don't expect me to say its realistic though.
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Post by aj czarkowski on May 17, 2012 22:11:20 GMT -5
As for the C96 mauser, I agree it was far too uncommon to be used in reenactments realistically, but 1 or 2 people out of 20 won't ruin it. I also try to portray the average soldier, and my impression/kit looks right out of the books and I like that. (and no, I don't own a C96)
But as for the cartridge belt, I think you might have mistaken it for something similar? This was what nearly every soldier with an M1 Garand rifle used to carry his ammo, my own grandfather had the belt and used it to carry his ammo. Besides rigger-mod pouches and ammo bags, this cartridge belt was the normal.
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Sgt_Tom
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Post by Sgt_Tom on May 18, 2012 0:08:13 GMT -5
Whoops lol, what I meant to say was a guy was talking about using a B.A.R belt for storing M1 Garand ammo. My bad, I am cracking up ;D.
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Post by volkssturm on May 18, 2012 16:14:01 GMT -5
Of course another aspect of German handgun issue is how it was decided who got what. I don't know for sure, but knowing the way armies work, I would bet that the Lugers and P38's ended up in the hands (or holsters) of officers and senior NCO's and more commonly in higher prestige units. Some corporal or private in a run of the mill infantry division would likely end up with whatever the supply chain could scrounge up, like a Polish RADOM or French M1935 or a Star or Astra pistol bought from Spain. Since there aren't any Airsoft versions of these, it's kind of beside the point.
As far as thh SS goes, at least in the early part of the war the SS was scrambling even harder for weapons, because the Heer wasn't disposed to give them any more standard weapons than they absolutely had to, being short themselves. So the SS ended up with MP35's instead of MP38's and MP40's. I found one discussion board that said the full auto buttstock holster version of the Mauser C96 was not uncommon in the SS.
It's a complex subject.
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