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Post by troyluginbill on May 10, 2008 2:37:12 GMT -5
Tommygunner. The 12 wasn't as common as the 97. There was also a stevens auto loader (by reports the most liked cause you didn't have to pump it.) and a remington. The stevens and remington were very rare as they were ordered mid war. I have never seen a pic of either but they do show up on the delivery lists and I have seen actual military marked versions (horribly expensive). In Vietnam the 12 had replaced many 97s but whenever someone got their hands on a 97 they kept it cause you could keep a load chambered and decock it to carry safely. That way you didn't have to rack the action to load and give away your position. All you had to do was thumb the hammer back.
P51 I am up in Lynden WA. Could I get some pics & dimensions of the ammo crate, I would like to build one.
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Post by troyluginbill on May 10, 2008 21:51:35 GMT -5
Sorry meant savage auto loader, not stevens. ( got a new stevens .22 and have stevens on the brain.)
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Post by flectarn on May 15, 2008 0:57:17 GMT -5
Who made the usmc camo? Im really taking a liking to it!
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Post by flectarn on May 15, 2008 17:21:40 GMT -5
I was actually meaning to ask about the maker in termsn of reproing it. But, thats very informational.
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Medic
Sergeant
I'm 12 not 25!
Posts: 1,539
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Post by Medic on May 15, 2008 18:49:48 GMT -5
I have a WT I am willing to sell.
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TommyGunner
Staff Sgt.
Hackjob Mauro
1st Marine Division, 1942
Posts: 2,265
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Post by TommyGunner on May 23, 2008 23:18:07 GMT -5
Alright I know I have been posting alot of pics (an more will come after this weekend) But I was laying out and getting ready to pack up my USMC gear for a Display I am participating in over the weekend and I juts had to take this pic. I litterally had to get up on a ladder to get a good overhead shot! This is every piece of gear I use for my USMC impressions. Everything besides the P-42 uniform, the Cammo helmet cover, M1910 shovel/case, the pup tent, trench knife, M1910 bayonet sheath and the P-41 pants are original. I have a ton more stuff that I want/ need to get before I can even remotely say my collection is near complete. After this weekend I will also own a reproduction USMC cammo tent. I also have yet to recive the 6 Marine Canteen covers I ordered but they were just ordered a few days ago and if Im luck they will be here in time for the display...but probably not. The gear list is as follows:Uniforms and Bits:P-41 uniform P-42 uniform Cammo helmet cover USMC leggings Pattern one service shoes (not shown) M-41 Jacket (underneath the P-41 uniform) Packs, bags and other stuff:Depot made P-41 pack system (hard to find 1st pattern with rivited straps) WW1 Greande vest Light weight gas mask bag (to carry what ever I want) 2 rifle ammo bandoliers M1910 Entrenching tool 42 dated 20 mil ammo can (brit made) BAR Gunners Kit:WW1 (USMC depot modifyed to WW2 specs VERY RARE) P-41 suspenders WW1 1st aid pouch 2 Army canteens covers and canteens (will replace with USMC covers) Springfield riflemens kit:Cartidge belt WW1 1st aid pouch P-41 suspenders WW1 wire cutter pouch 1 US navy canteen cover, and canteen M1928 Thompson Gunners Kit:M1936 Pistol belt 2 5 cell 20 rnd magazine pouches M1942 1st aid kit P-41 suspenders 1 Army canteen cover, and canteen (will replace with USMC ones) spare canteen as well 1 Yellow grenade Okinawa Sgts Kit:M1936 Pistol belt Jungle 1st aid kit M1942 1st aid pouch 2 WW1 pattern .45 ammo pouches 1 3 cell (USMC marked) Thompson ammo pouch Tents, blankes/ ponchos:WW2 pattern tent (full pup tent with both halfs) 44 dated Cammo poncho 2 wool blankets Personal items:Mess kit (with spoon, fork and knife inside) can of beans Lucky Strike Cigarets Western union telegram Pictures stuck inside my helmet Edged Weapons:42 dated leather Machete sheath and machete WW1 Trench Knife M1910 Bayonet Sheath Head Gear:2 swivel bale M1 Helmets Weapons (not shown)M1928 Thompson SMG (with Drum mag, 20rnd mag) M1A1 Thompson SMG (soon to own) M1918 Browning Automatic Rifle M1903A1 Springfield Rifle\ M1911 Colt.45 (blued Steel finish) prop only So there you guys have it, my USMC stuff! TommyGunner
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TommyGunner
Staff Sgt.
Hackjob Mauro
1st Marine Division, 1942
Posts: 2,265
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Post by TommyGunner on May 23, 2008 23:18:53 GMT -5
Today was a very crappy dark rainy day....so I figured it would be perfect to take pics of my Radier kit ;D Alright here are some pics of my 1942 Marine Raiders kit that I have and am still working on. I still need to finish my Burlap helmet cover, I need to get an 16 inch bayonet, and two Marine canteen covers along with 2 metal caps for my canteens. I also need to get a brown leather helmet strap. Oh and I neglected to put my leggings on but they were worn as often as they were not. Also need to convert my helmet to a fixed bale. However this kit features a Marine raider in 1942 with a field applied cammo paint job on his jacket. I have the upper pack on my P-41 pack system on, I have a 42 dated ammo belt, a WW1 Grenade vest, a WW1 Trench Knife, yellow grenade, M1910 bayonet sheath, WW1 1st aid pouch, P-41 suspenders, an Army canteen and a Navy canteen (I still have yet to recieve my Marine canteen covers) My funny duh face for all to see lol TommyGunner
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click
Sergeant
Company G, 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines, 1st Marine Division
Posts: 1,764
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Post by click on May 31, 2008 9:14:42 GMT -5
Do my eyes deceive me or does the guy closest to the camera, carrying the Thompson, have a 4 cell mag carrier ?!! Click
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kalbs
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,142
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Post by kalbs on May 31, 2008 9:34:19 GMT -5
In the book "MARINE" by Ron Field there is a larger blowup of the same picture. It is a 5 cell pouch. The cell that's hard to see is on the far right but easily seen in the clearer picture in the book.
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Post by Capt. Zak on Jun 3, 2008 22:16:14 GMT -5
You can tell it's a 5 cell from the picture posted.
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Post by Capt. Zak on Jun 3, 2008 22:19:30 GMT -5
The Marine camouflage is actually the same pattern as Army camouflage. The Army actually supplied on the camouflage fabric that would be made into Marine uniforms, there was no specific "Marine Camouflage" pattern. The Army & USMC patterns differed in their background color. There is also alot of misstatements about why the army stopped using camo. The "friendly fire" story being the biggest load of crap. ;D Plain & simple, experimental dyes were used and they didn't hold up. The uniforms faded to almost white and the GI's tossed them. Seems the Marine dyes (from a different manufacturer) were not as shoddy.
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kalbs
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,142
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Post by kalbs on Jun 3, 2008 23:03:34 GMT -5
The Marine camouflage is actually the same pattern as Army camouflage. The Army actually supplied on the camouflage fabric that would be made into Marine uniforms, there was no specific "Marine Camouflage" pattern. The Army & USMC patterns differed in their background color. There is also alot of misstatements about why the army stopped using camo. The "friendly fire" story being the biggest load of crap. ;D Plain & simple, experimental dyes were used and they didn't hold up. The uniforms faded to almost white and the GI's tossed them. Seems the Marine dyes (from a different manufacturer) were not as shoddy. My readings say the Marine and Army camo HBT is the same material and both were printed on the the Army pattern HBT. This is also noted in the comprehensive book " Grunt Gear" by Alec S. Tulkoff. Note that only a few USMC divisions or units were issued the Camo HBT's and usually only one pair per marine. I suspect the Marine camo HBT's were never in service very long with an individual and tossed quite quickly. It is also likely that the background colors appear different due to the different dying lots just as they are with all other fabric uniforms and gear. A good topic for sure and I'll break out my references for a refresher on this topic as my above comments are based on memory.
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kalbs
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,142
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Post by kalbs on Jun 4, 2008 7:54:40 GMT -5
Per my research: The first Camo samples were produced by Cranston Print works however, the only HBT Camo material manufactures presently known to have contracted with the Marine Corps were Rock Hill Printing & Finishing Company (June 42 till Sept 42) and the Allied Textile Printers Inc. (July 43 till Nov 43)
The Army purchased the same material fromRock Hill but also Cranston Print Works. Both the USMC Camo and Army Camo were printed on the same Army HBT weave material.
In a nut shell, they are more or less the same.
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Post by Capt. Zak on Jun 4, 2008 8:59:09 GMT -5
Correct on all accounts. I am not arguing here. The USMC camo & Army camo are the same pattern, they are on the same HBT. They differ in style and construction pattern (ie pockets, snaps/buttons etc.).
Now, at some point the contractors who printed the Army camo changed to an experimental dye. Marine camo came out around 1942 correct? Army camo two years later. There were units in the 30th Infantry Division who were issued the camo uniforms after D-Day and I have personally spoken to a number of those Vets and they have all sang the same tune. Never once did they hear about the camo clad GI's being shot by mistake, thinking that "only Germans wore camo". They were instructed to turn in their camo because after a few weeks, the dye faded to an off white rendering the camo useless.
My friends Grandfather said a lot of the guys thought the camo was "ugly" so they never even wore it. It was "lost" shortly after it was issued.
The whole point of my rebuttle was to explain the ETO friendly fire rumors. The Army's official reason for ditching the camo was in fact poor quality and ineffectivness. Not GI's mistakenly shot as Germans wearing camo.
Seems the USMC camo simply wore out physically. The ETO Army camo never made it that long. So sewing patterns & quality are the differences.
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Post by Capt. Zak on Jun 4, 2008 21:13:43 GMT -5
Skirmish magazine did a story about ETO camo a few years back. The topic also came up on R. Lee Ermy's Mail Call on the History Channel. I also heard the dye story from a number of vets in the 30th ID. I used to reenact 30th ID and was fortunate enough to attend a few of the surviving vets meetings. Sadly, they (all that attended the meetings) are gone now.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Jun 5, 2008 0:22:40 GMT -5
The 41st Armored Infantry attached to the Second Armored Division wore the camo two piece Army uniform and many of them were still wearing them in September. apparently there were some Engineer units who likewise kept them quite a while following the D-Day landings. Most of those few who were issued them dumpted them fairly quickly. I Never heard a single vet from the numerous 41st Infantry reunions I attended say anything about fading to white or bad dyes I'm not suggesting that isn't the case it's just interesting that they wore them so long and didn't mention the fading issue. I have spoken with several 41st veterans and even asked specifically about the camo uniforms. They did say they were getting shot at alot from other friendly units but I've heard that from every WW2 GI who was in the Infantry. My guess is there was a wide variety of experiences with the camo uniforms and an equally wide variety of opinions about why they were more commonplace or widely used. I asked why they got rid of them and the two fellows I spoke with said they were wore out, funky and their was replacement uniform items getting passed out.
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Post by Capt. Zak on Jun 5, 2008 6:33:43 GMT -5
That's the amazing thing about this hobby, you ask a question and there is literally 20 different answers. Most of the time the majority of them are proven to be true.
It is interesting though that 2 different units had completely different experiences with basically the same uniform. I have heard that uniforms were worn well into the fall, I was merely sharing what the Vets of the 30th ID shared with me. By no means am I a ETO Camo expert.
One more thing to clarify, I stated above the camo that the 30th guys had faded to off white, my friends grandfather said that the browns & the greens (the over print) in the pattern faded rapidly and the actual dyed HBT faded to a light green/foam color. His comment was "we could have just worn a bullseye and cut to the chase".
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kalbs
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,142
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Post by kalbs on Jun 5, 2008 7:39:41 GMT -5
That the great thing about this web site Capt. Zak, the passion for WW2 history and that since I've joined I'm learning a heck of a lot more.
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Post by Tough Ombre on Jun 5, 2008 12:42:12 GMT -5
One more thing to remember about the US army camo, was that they were HBT's, and HBT's wear out real quick. I wore my trousers in the field once and already have a huge tear up the side of the leg. So, the disappearance of the camo would also be noted to the fact that they wore out and were replaced by either normal HBT's or wools as the cool/cold months were coming up. -Cary
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Post by troyluginbill on Jun 7, 2008 2:05:05 GMT -5
WW2 Magazine had an article last year on the ETO camo and mentioned the same thing about the bad dye lot. I will find the article. To sum up their statement there was a batch of HBTs made that did not get the colorfast treatment. This was the primary reason (excuse) for the army to drop further HBT commitment. However there was many more than one batch made with the initial contract so not all the camo faded. The reason it was not given a second chance though is because most of the higher ups didn't think camo made any difference and was a waste of resources.
The thing I find funny/odd/ironic is how the current green, brown, tan the military is going back to looks alot like the original frogskin pattern and colors. Aaah politics.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Jun 8, 2008 19:46:45 GMT -5
There are obviously a lot of opinions reagrding the camouflage uniforms worn in the ETO by a few rather unique elements. As noted it's part of what makes this hobby fun. The debates!
There are extensive Photos of the 41st in the magazine/ booklet BREAKOUT AT NORMANDY The 2nd Armored Division in the Land of the Dead (Bando) MBI publishing (interesting read and lots of great pictures I'd not seen elsewhere) In one photo you can see troops in a Halftrack at the Seine River and though a good distance away you can clearly see the camo patterns.
There are alos lots of anecdotes about men wearing them being confused with Germans. Perhaps the best is the following: Shortly before the breakthrough, Bob Lohr of C/82nd Recon 2nd AD had gone to division supply to get a set of replacement fatigues. He had been wearing a green HBT set since landing in France. At the time the 2nd AD supply was replacing all fatigue requests with the two piece camouflage shirts and pants. In late July 1944 Bob was wearing metal rimmed glasses the two piece camo uniform and hobbed nail shoes he had gotten from the British Army. After being shot through the chest (Through his dog tags) in the La Pintiere battle, Lohr was in and out of conciousness during his trip rearward for medical treatment. At one point he awoke while on a ship crossing the channel. Once in England he awoke in a cot in a large tent. Lohr flagged down a passing nurse and said "Could I please have something to relieve the pain?" The nurse snapped "You dammned Kraut, you're lucky to be alive." All around him were wounded Germans. "But there has been some mistake, "I'm not a Kraut I'm a GI!" After recuperating he would return to battle only to be badly wounded again. The medical evacuation team had identified him as German, due to the uniform.
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Sgt_Tom
Technical Sgt.
Combat!
Posts: 3,580
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Post by Sgt_Tom on Jun 8, 2008 20:40:00 GMT -5
There are obviously a lot of opinions reagrding the camouflage uniforms worn in the ETO by a few rather unique elements. As noted it's part of what makes this hobby fun. The debates! There are extensive Photos of the 41st in the magazine/ booklet BREAKOUT AT NORMANDY The 2nd Armored Division in the Land of the Dead (Bando) MBI publishing (interesting read and lots of great pictures I'd not seen elsewhere) In one photo you can see troops in a Halftrack at the Seine River and though a good distance away you can clearly see the camo patterns. There are alos lots of anecdotes about men wearing them being confused with Germans. Perhaps the best is the following: Shortly before the breakthrough, Bob Lohr of C/82nd Recon 2nd AD had gone to division supply to get a set of replacement fatigues. He had been wearing a green HBT set since landing in France. At the time the 2nd AD supply was replacing all fatigue requests with the two piece camouflage shirts and pants. In late July 1944 Bob was wearing metal rimmed glasses the two piece camo uniform and hobbed nail shoes he had gotten from the British Army. After being shot through the chest (Through his dog tags) in the La Pintiere battle, Lohr was in and out of conciousness during his trip rearward for medical treatment. At one point he awoke while on a ship crossing the channel. Once in England he awoke in a cot in a large tent. Lohr flagged down a passing nurse and said "Could I please have something to relieve the pain?" The nurse snapped "You dammned Kraut, you're lucky to be alive." All around him were wounded Germans. "But there has been some mistake, "I'm not a Kraut I'm a GI!" After recuperating he would return to battle only to be badly wounded again. The medical evacuation team had identified him as German, due to the uniform. Wow 2nd Bat thats an amazing story I've never heard it before. Thanks for sharing.
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Post by Capt. Zak on Jun 8, 2008 21:49:46 GMT -5
I wonder if Germans were ever mistaken for GI's when wearing HBT uniforms & leather soled boots.
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Russian
Corporal
Magician
Posts: 923
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Post by Russian on Jun 8, 2008 22:28:29 GMT -5
I wonder if Germans were ever mistaken for GI's when wearing HBT uniforms & leather soled boots. And finally, the late war secret German program; Operation Uniform Replace, comes to light.
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Adler69
Master sergeant
Legio Patria Nostra
Posts: 2,859
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Post by Adler69 on Jun 19, 2008 16:13:09 GMT -5
One of our guys bought this nice little machine from a Vets widow 2 weeks ago , taught you guys might like it
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Medic
Sergeant
I'm 12 not 25!
Posts: 1,539
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Post by Medic on Jun 19, 2008 16:21:18 GMT -5
I wonder if Germans were ever mistaken for GI's when wearing HBT uniforms & leather soled boots. They phased the uniforms out on D-Day because some of the first troops landed and they were shot by friendlies because they looked like (Waffen SS).
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Post by binarypunisher on Jun 19, 2008 18:00:12 GMT -5
I wonder if Germans were ever mistaken for GI's when wearing HBT uniforms & leather soled boots. They phased the uniforms out on D-Day because some of the first troops landed and they were shot by friendlies because they looked like (Waffen SS). Thats not true. This topic has been covered somewhere here already. The problem was that the uniforms faded very quickly.
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Post by mauser98k on Jun 19, 2008 18:07:39 GMT -5
I wonder if Germans were ever mistaken for GI's when wearing HBT uniforms & leather soled boots. They phased the uniforms out on D-Day because some of the first troops landed and they were shot by friendlies because they looked like (Waffen SS). Where did you get this information? I've heard that there were no such friendly fire incidents, but that the uniforms were used for months by the 2nd armored, just tossed quickly due to the discoloration that occurred with the camouflage. Edit* I just realized that binary just answered this. My bad. -Dakota
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Medic
Sergeant
I'm 12 not 25!
Posts: 1,539
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Post by Medic on Jun 19, 2008 18:12:09 GMT -5
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Post by mauser98k on Jun 19, 2008 18:16:05 GMT -5
Anyone have a link to the old thread on this?
-Dakota
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