TommyGunner
Staff Sgt.
Hackjob Mauro
1st Marine Division, 1942
Posts: 2,265
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Post by TommyGunner on Mar 15, 2008 22:57:56 GMT -5
This thread is at the suggestion of Troy, myself and some others. The gear, uniforms and other general equipment used by the USMC has been hotly debated by the membes here on the forums and is has been said that it is a good idea to start a thread on USMC equipment and impressions USMC reenactors have created, so that members do not have to pick through the plethora of information in other threads simply to find the USMC stuff. I felt I should start this thread off with some pics of the members of the 1st USMC Div (not all are pictured here) I am pictured with the BAR, Cap.Zak (Jeff) is pictured with the Carbine and Russian (Ben) is pictured with the Springfield Rifle. We have two more members who are not pictured here but who have a Medic impression (Matt) and an M1 Garand riflemen (Barry). Me:Here is one of my impressions, my BAR Gunners imp. My kit consists of the following gear common to a BAR Gunner in late 1942 or early 1943. All equipment and uniform is original WW2 dated (All dated 42 and 43 some WW1 Dated items) - Depot Modifyed P41 Pack System - What is pictured is my M1937 BAR Belt less common but I wont ruin my RARE original by wearing it ;D( Not pictured is my original WW1 Depot modifyed WW2 USMC Rebuild BAR Belt correct for this period) - Army M1910 Army first aid pouch (WW1 dated) - P41 suspenders - P41 uniform - Boon Dockers - 2 canteens - AEG BAR - Army M1910 shovel and cover Ben:First off I would like to say that we all know the 1st USMC Div never got cammo uniforms so Ben will represent the 2nd USMC Div. Ben is equipped with my Spare riflemens kit. His kit consists of the following gear common to a riflemen in late 1942 or early 1943. All equipment is original WW2 dated (All dated 42 and 43 some WW1 dated items) - Boyt 1923 Crtridge belt - Wire cutter pouch - 2 canteens - P42 Cammo uniform - P1912 first aid pouch (WW1 dated) - P41 suspenders - 2 Ammo bandoliers Jeff:Jeffs represents a USMC Carbine Riflemen. His kit consists of the following gear common to a Carbine riflemen in mid to late 1943, even late 44. All equipment is original WW2 dated (All dated 42 and 43 some WW1 dated items) - P41 Suspenders - WW1 Pistol Belt - 2 canteens (1 cross flap) - 2 Carbine Ammo pouches - Army M41 Jacket - P41 uniform (Arm HBT Top under jacket, yep it was done!) - M1936 first aid pouch (in back) - M1910 first aid pouch (in front, guys used them to hold revolver ammo - Victory revolver - Victory revolver holster - Cammo helmet cover We hope to have full unit photos up soon and I will upload pics of my Springfield Riflemens imp, Thompson gunners imp, MG gunners imp. And soon to be wake Island defenders imp with lewis MG So if anyone has USMC information they want to post, has questions or even wants to post pis of there imps, please feel free to do so. Also if you post pics of your imps deffinatly include a gear list with it. ;D TommyGunner
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Post by 2ndranger on Mar 15, 2008 23:10:58 GMT -5
VERY GOOD guys! I thought Id never see the day...Jeff going back to allied! Nice impressions guys! Yes even you too Ben!
Franz(AA)
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Post by Capt. Zak on Mar 15, 2008 23:25:21 GMT -5
Man you got those pics up quick Jer! I was trying to look distinguished in that photo of me solo...contemplating my next attack on Tojo!
;D
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TommyGunner
Staff Sgt.
Hackjob Mauro
1st Marine Division, 1942
Posts: 2,265
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Post by TommyGunner on Mar 16, 2008 1:41:52 GMT -5
Dude read my post, I told you its cold and he was wearing it becuase it was cold here in the midwest. DUH!! they didnt wear the Wools in combate in the PTO. I also said in my post that we already know about the late carbine pouch. Oh and the 1st USMC Div did get the M41s. You attacked mute points that I gave the same answer too that you latter posted
Sorry but Tarawa was in 43 buddy and they wore the cammo on tarawa, brown side or not they wore it so my dates are correct. Plus if you saw my post his KIT is correct for 42-43 I never said his uniform was correct for 42, obviously its only correct for 43 and onward.
On the M41 you said every marine was issued it, sorry but they got issued before the campaignes which means undoubtly Divs got them in 44 which means Jeff is right in having one. Plus I have pics, Im gonna grab my pile of books and get the pics for you.
Besides our imps are supposed to represent different years in WW2 to show the different gear set ups never said we were consitant with eachother.
Oh and if your curious I use more than one source, not only the web, books and other reenactors BUT Several Marines from WW2 all who served on Tinian, Okinawa, Iwo, and Sipan.
You seem to dish out alot of words but I want pics of your imps, I put my stuff up and let people tear into my stuff but you have yet too.
Nothing new has been said nor contributed, it seems trivial nit picky things are being brought up now simply for the sake of you making a post. Nothing positive though.
I will admit however to the TYPO I made in my first post on the 1st aid pouches. I do know the difference but I typed it in wrong.
I would like to say though that this post may sound aggrivated, it really is not and I in no way am intending a negative overtone to anything I type.
(By the way the quotes you made form my quotes have been taken out of context, my last edit was made at 11:57pm and you posted at 12:12am with old quotes, I obviously edited my post before you made yours, thsu ypu should re-read what I have said ......... 15 min before you posted)
TommyGunner
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Post by troyluginbill on Mar 16, 2008 1:46:04 GMT -5
Gyrene, I will find the link but was reading a post on the ww2 forums about USMC. Harlan came back after he published his book and made a statement that he thinks the wool was alot more common than he let on. Said he looked at lots of pics, how he told the difference I do not know, I can't.
Tommygunner. Where did you get the info on no camo for 1st div? Not saying its not true, just never heard that.
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TommyGunner
Staff Sgt.
Hackjob Mauro
1st Marine Division, 1942
Posts: 2,265
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Post by TommyGunner on Mar 16, 2008 1:50:00 GMT -5
Well I have not seen the 1st USMC Div with cammo in any books I have seen, and I dont know of any other reenactors that have found evidence to support the 1st USMC Div with cammo.
Hmmmm come to think of it only a few Divs were given cammo.
TommyGunner
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Post by troyluginbill on Mar 16, 2008 2:39:39 GMT -5
Tommygunner you scared me for a second with the no 1st div camo (my jacket is a repro that I did off of a fellow named sgt. Frank OConner who was with the first. I used the same unit marking he had from his camo utilities, only changed the company from headquarters to recon. I didn't think he lied to me but sometimes old guys get confused and he was with the 2nd div in Korea.-One of the frozen chosin!)
Tulkoff, glenn, warner and the new alberti and pradier books they all agree that all the divisions had cammies (1-6). It was usually mixed from 43 (bougainville)-44(tinian and guam) and by Iwo done away with as ineffective on the beaches. The only groups that used them regularly throughout the war were the raiders and paratroopers. Tarawa campaing was the largest use of the camo utilities and the only place you would see them regularly with both tops and bottoms. Glenn has a great summary on Page 81 about cammies.
I would guess it is safe to say that wearing camo for mid war would be fine, especially mixed. But it sounds like a no-no for iwo jima and okinawa campaigns.
Now I know this is a usmc thread but what about pto army camo? Anyone know if any was used?
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Post by collisi0n on Mar 16, 2008 3:19:10 GMT -5
Now I know this is a usmc thread but what about pto army camo? Anyone know if any was used? I know they were used early on, like in bouganville. In one of my books it said that very early on the one-piece suits were issued to usmc snipers while everyone else wore the p41s, then the p42s were issued. Another thing about okinawa, I don't know if different battlions wore different stuff or something but my grandpa who landed and fought on okinawa did not wear a helmet cover at all, in fact the only usmc stuff he's wearing are the dungarees, boondockers, and leggings. (I have a picture of him shortly before going to okinawa with all his gear clearly visible)
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click
Sergeant
Company G, 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines, 1st Marine Division
Posts: 1,764
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Post by click on Mar 16, 2008 4:20:44 GMT -5
Great pics and a great idea for a new thread!
Click
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Medic
Sergeant
I'm 12 not 25!
Posts: 1,539
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Post by Medic on Mar 16, 2008 7:16:42 GMT -5
Awesome Impressions! If there are Japanese I might be totally in .
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Lev
Private 1st Class
Posts: 454
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Post by Lev on Mar 16, 2008 7:58:59 GMT -5
You guys look great!
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Post by Capt. Zak on Mar 16, 2008 10:41:12 GMT -5
Anyone else have any Marine impressions to post?
And that is not a folding stock M1 Carbine.
And as stated in a much earlier thread, the US M1 Carbine pouches are being swapped out for USMC pouches...as soon as I find some originals. I want to keep the items in this USMC impression original as much as possible.
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Post by Capt. Zak on Mar 16, 2008 16:07:19 GMT -5
Cleaned up and reenstated. Please keep the thread civil and pictoral evidence is always encouraged.
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Russian
Corporal
Magician
Posts: 923
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Post by Russian on Mar 16, 2008 16:10:59 GMT -5
A quick note on the "no wools in combat", this isnt necesarily true. While not the rule, it did occur, as guys were issued wools, and things were worn if they had them. I found a picture in a book I have of Tarawa where a guy can be seen wearing a wool shirt. I don't have a scanner, so I tried to find the same picture online. I found one of lesser quality, but, I hope you can still see the shirt. In the pic I have, it's pretty clear. *Note* I'm not talking about the jacket being worn, but the shirt underneath, that is obscured by the jacket. The line it forms is clearly a button down shirt, and it's not the summer khaki.
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Russian
Corporal
Magician
Posts: 923
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Post by Russian on Mar 16, 2008 16:41:08 GMT -5
He clearly isnt wearing any camo pattern at all. I wasn't arguing that he was.
He IS clearly wearing a shirt underneath. Unless you have a photo of how some peoples torso's have a crease along them that look like a shirt. Post that pic, if you do.
The shirt is clearly darker than the pants he is wearing. Thus, the coloring of the shirt vs the pants would be darker< lighter. A summer service shirt is not darker than any pair of pants issued, to my knowledge. (Gyrene, feel free to post to prove wrong, but post pictures, not half baked museings, please.)
Prove us wrong with facts, not denouncments. Thanks.
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Post by Capt. Zak on Mar 16, 2008 16:45:43 GMT -5
Hre is a picture of the Marines on Iwo having a church service (I hope the photo is large enough). Notice the Marine receiving communion! Army HBT trousers & M41 field jacket. Look around the photo, you see others wearig not only Army HBT's, but M41's as well.
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TommyGunner
Staff Sgt.
Hackjob Mauro
1st Marine Division, 1942
Posts: 2,265
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Post by TommyGunner on Mar 16, 2008 16:49:18 GMT -5
Great Pic Jeff, I think I have that pic in my Book Pictoral History of Iwo Jima. Lots of Army stuff in that pic!!
Now concerning Russians pic, what is really cool is that pic also shows the Marine throwing the grenade has an Army M1912 first aid pouch on showing that the USMC did use the M1912 pouch also even on Tarawa.
Cool Information on Ponchos:
Alrigt I was looking through some USMC ponchos I have and I have one dated 44, one dated Feb 17th 45 and another one that is Navy Marked 44.
The cool thing about these pochos is that apparently in 45 they started to put gromets on them to be used as tents, but versions made before 45 do not have these on them. The reason behind my thinking on this is that becuae my 45 dated one is the only one that has these gromits. So if anyone is doing an Imp before 45 and is useing a poncho with gromits on it, it may be inccorect. Im going to look through photos to see what I can find and also see what I can find on other originals my friend Rich has (they are dated 43 and 44)
TommyGunner
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Post by ivymp4 on Mar 16, 2008 16:53:47 GMT -5
TG for the LAST time its a 1910 first aid kit not a M-1912 GET IT RIGHT!!!!!!
Cap Zack no one is saying that the USMC didn't use wool shirts or 41's just that the 1st didn't use them till Okinawa. This is like saying look at that 101st guy he as scrim on his helmet cool i am going to do it for my 28th impression.
Cody
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Post by Capt. Zak on Mar 16, 2008 16:58:47 GMT -5
TG for the LAST time its a 1910 first aid kit not a M-1912 GET IT RIGHT!!!!!! M1910 FAP = Army M1912 FAP = USMC Right? My head hurts!
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TommyGunner
Staff Sgt.
Hackjob Mauro
1st Marine Division, 1942
Posts: 2,265
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Post by TommyGunner on Mar 16, 2008 17:01:07 GMT -5
CRAP lol Sorry about that lol. Hmmm I keep doing that. But I will post pics of the Army M1912 then on Guaddal and several other places.
TommyGunner
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Post by ivymp4 on Mar 16, 2008 17:02:01 GMT -5
close its the p-1912 for usmc
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TommyGunner
Staff Sgt.
Hackjob Mauro
1st Marine Division, 1942
Posts: 2,265
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Post by TommyGunner on Mar 16, 2008 17:09:13 GMT -5
Ok Something is really wrong here.
Alright giev me a sec and Im gonna take pics of my 2 originals and have them correctly identifyed then.
TommyGunner
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TommyGunner
Staff Sgt.
Hackjob Mauro
1st Marine Division, 1942
Posts: 2,265
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Post by TommyGunner on Mar 16, 2008 17:13:40 GMT -5
Alright I have many pics from several books on several campaignes that have both of these pouches being used by the USMC. I even have pics of guys useing the M1936 first aid pouch whiel otheres are still using one of these two. Here is a pic of both of my original 1918 dated pouchs. Lets get the designation right on these once and for all. lol ;D TommyGunner
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Post by ivymp4 on Mar 16, 2008 17:22:21 GMT -5
all right on the left its the USMC P-1912 pouch and on the right is the ARMY M-1910 pouch
Cody ps its the M-1924 or M-1942 pouch there is no such thing as a M-1936 pouch pps can i see pics of the marking on the pouch's something just doesn't look right to me
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Beaver
Private
RIP Lester Scheaffer KIA September 12th 1944
Posts: 91
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Post by Beaver on Mar 16, 2008 17:26:17 GMT -5
it looks like there is a M-3 stuck in the ground to the left of the Marine receiving communion.
cool photo.
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YankeeDiv26
Staff Sgt.
Frustrated Mac Owner
BDM<33
Posts: 2,462
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Post by YankeeDiv26 on Mar 16, 2008 17:46:23 GMT -5
Great thread idea! So far lot's of in-depth topics have been covered and hopefully will in the future
Zak, I was honest to god about to suggest that your picture should be for your avatar. Guess ya beat me to it. WWTD?...probably banzaii
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TommyGunner
Staff Sgt.
Hackjob Mauro
1st Marine Division, 1942
Posts: 2,265
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Post by TommyGunner on Mar 16, 2008 17:55:56 GMT -5
Sorry but I dont have time to post pics of the insides before I leave for NIU. I can tell you whats in them. The markigns on the P1912 pouch are very faded and poorly printed (hastly printed) btu it says 1918.
The M1910 is marked Long 1918. With some markings on the back of the pouch too.
I may be back next weekend for easter and if I am I will take pics for you.
Both Jeff and Ben can attest to their originality though as they have seen them in person.
TommyGunner
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Post by ivymp4 on Mar 16, 2008 18:13:30 GMT -5
Sorry man but the P12 screams repro to me (i have been COLLECTING for 10 years) your p12 pouch looks like its a Harlin repro and the m-1910 pouch looks like it might be. It could be a schipperfabrik repro maybe a old AEF supply i know they mark theres long 1918 how much did you pay for these ? As a original p12 pouch should be in the 175 to 200 range!!!! , and 1910 pouch's should be 25-50 depending on condition.
Cody
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Russian
Corporal
Magician
Posts: 923
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Post by Russian on Mar 16, 2008 18:47:37 GMT -5
Even if he is wearing an undershirt prove to me it is a winter shirt, they had both. What makes more sense in a tropical climate, light cotton or heavy wool? Remember this is under a HBT jacket which is notorious for not 'breathing' well? Alright, Marines are not my area of expertise, nor is the PTO. However, people (not just you, Gyrene...golly, isnt wonderful when we spread insults to a wider audience to make everyone feel included? ) that believe in this "When A happened, everyone did B" mentality are a sore spot in almost every realist's book. Saying that when the season turned to summer, every wool shirt was collected, recatalogued, and summer shirts were issued out to every man hurts my brain to consider. This, while maybe, was tried for, it would never happen in total. Overall, do you really feel comfortable saying that 100% every shirt was taken from everyman and 100% of the number of summer shirts needed were simoltaneously reissued to everyman, noted, stocked, and then the supply trucks disappeared? Believing in this is stupid. Accept that in war, things do not work as well as you dream they should have. Again, this is for people across the board, not directed soley at you, Gyrene. That being said, I am open to the possibility that a guy may have worn a wool shirt. Period wool actually breathed quite nicely, and I, personally, have worn period wool shirts in 90 degree weather. Likewise, the wool service shirt was not a "winter" shirt. The khaki summer uniform was a summer uniform, but the wools were to be worn year round. The HBT jacket was known not to breath well. However, if the picture is to grainy and unclear for you to even tell that the guy is wearing a shirt, how can you be so sure what jacket he is wearing? Seems you are picking and choosing, and I can't tell for sure what jacket that is. By far my favorite insult ever, watch out this thread could be deleted and then reopened so that people can dogpile on you. Not an insult, a suggestion. You have so far come onto this board and quarrled with every person you've met, even one's who have been here for 4-5 years. I suggest you either A), stop acting like a royal you-know-what, or B) back everything you quarrle about up so much that no one can say you are obnoxious, becausethey are suffocated by the pile of research you thrust at them. This I'll leave at the old saying: If you'd entered these boards acting humble at all, not like your crusading to destroy the ignorance of the masses with a cross on your back and a mandate from god in your pocket, you may have been recieved more fittingly. No one to blame but you for that. Still plenty of time to change your attitude, then we'll change ours. Russian
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Post by troyluginbill on Mar 16, 2008 18:53:24 GMT -5
I am wondering if tulkoffs piece (44-45) about camo uniforms being contracted for the 1st amphibious corps is what the confusion is about 1st division vs. 2nd division vs. 3rd division camo use is. The 1st MAC was made up of 1st and 2nd div elements. Tulkoff is saying it looks like camo went to specific battalions within these elements as a priority-hence you don't see camo on 1st div infantry, but you do on 1st div raiders, paratroopers and amphibious. With the divisions beginning to fall under the FMF and MAC organizations you begin to see a mixed bag of orders/contracts for specific units.
All in all it looks like the largest use of camo is on Bougainville and Tarawa. This makes it most used by the 2nd and 3rd, but entirely possible that elements of the 1st would have used it for these campaigns as elements of the 1st are rushed to cape glouchester to reinforce the 3rd at bougainville and would have the ampihibious and command elements from the 1st MAC coordinating the bougainville attack and tarawa in conjunction with the 3rd MAC. After that the only division that seemed to keep using them extensively is the 2nd in the Mariannas and Eniweitok.
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