G43 Stock Ideas

[insterburger]

Just getting into a G43 build (I know, I have two 98k's to do too, but what little time I have I'm kind of wanting to use to do something I haven't before) and I have some ideas on how to make it reasonably accurate, especially in the stock, but wanted to run them by the membership to see if people might have thought of something I haven't. I should start out by saying I need to do this CHEAP, so no 100+ bucks for the shoot and scoot action cover (unfortunately).

So my basic idea was inspired by Drac's recent attempt at a Schwerpunkt-style 98k, where the buttstock and forend from the DBoys is grafted on to the Bar 10 central stock. I had tought: The M14 stock doesn't look right, especially in the buttstock area, and there are myriad technical and visual problems with putting the M14 into the 98k stock-- but why couldn't I mate the two stocks?

My idea is to cut both stocks at the wrist and attach the 98k butt to the M14 body using metal pins, PC-7, and fiberglass resin. That part should be straightforward, the only real challenge making sure that the motor has clearance in the mated stock. It might require me to build the outside up a bit which would thicken the wrist slightly, but that's not necessarily bad.

The more challenging-- and intriguing-- part is the fore-end. My idea here is to cut the 98k stock just behind the cross lug and cut the other end at the lower band, then cut the M14 stock just before it starts to contour out from a flat to a curved bottom. Mating these together this way open up a bunch of possibilities: 1) I can probably add at least a little length to the stock to get the dimension at least closer to a G43 stock. 2) By carefully tapering the upper edge of the stock and adjusting the cut at the back end, then removing material from the barrel channel, I can manipulate where the barrel protrudes at the front end to create the appearance of the lower barrel. 3) I can then cut down the remnant M14 forestock to use as the upper handguard, saving myself having to get one at great expense or fabricate one from scratch with great effort.

I think the biggest challenge will be making sure things line up properly and creating STRONG seams between the mated sections. The wrist should be pretty easy to join, there will be considerable building up and contouring to be done on the forward join, but I think it should be doable.

Does any of this even make sense to anyone? And if it does, does it sound like it would work?

Also ideas for the action cover are appreciated. I have an junky old ABS AK I was going to cut up and use to fabricate, but the views of others are always welcome.

Thoughts are appreciated!

[2nd Bat]

We appear to be at a smililar pointin the "mental gymnastics" phase of this project. With Draculd "BAR 98". He had the entire internal area between the donar stock and the Dboys stock to install a dowel or metal rod. The AEG gear box will not allow this room. I am thinking how this challenge might be facilitated and think added material outside the necks is the only possible solution. I'm not so sure it will be as bad as you might think. I has to add quite a bit of size to the neck areas when I used the inletted actual stocks on my recent Garand projects and feel quite good about how they came out. I also had good luck with the fabricated forestocks and upperhandguards and sites on the cheap SMLEs i made using DYNA glass and creative sculpting. i think a similar approach Could work for a pseudo G43. The results will NOT be fabulous but could be decent.

I am actually tempted to experiment with the approach using inexpensive M14 springers to get the technique down or have a proof of concept. These springers although visually G43ish would function tactically as Kar 98s. (cocked each time). The receiver group for the G43 is not especially intricate.

[Dracul]

For my springer Kar98's, the DBoy's Kar98 stock, slides over the Bar-10's stock at the neck. Thats possible because of the Bar-10's stock neck doesn't need to be big. From my failed G43 project, and just working with M14's, I can tell you that the M14's stock neck is significantly bigger than a Bar-10. I was barely able to get the motor into the Kar98 stock, so my guess is that the Kar98's and M14's stock necks are roughly the same size.

Perhaps, instead of making the slide over of stocks at the stock necks, make it at the main stock, behind the motor completely. Cut off a lot of the M14 stock, so it looks like a split rod almost, and slide over the Kar98 stock from there. I know that might not make any sense...Its hard to put this stuff into words at times. 

[Jerry-ADK]

A possible idea for the receiver group would be to use a section of appropriate sized pvc pipe split in half for the cover.  Then use a slightly larger piece to create the bolt group.  use some kind of sculptable putty resin  i.e. PC7 to create the details of the bolt. Use a cut off rear sight from a Dboys to finish out the upper receiver.  Thats what I would try in lue of using a 3d print shop software to create the parts.  I really see a niche for 3d printing in making custom parts for our projects.  I will be exploring that option soon myself. 

[shiftysgarand]

Jimmoraqui made a pretty nice G43 a while ago by just modifying the M14 stock with resin paste and building up the receiver with PVC. You could obviously go more in-depth than he did, like removing the fire selector and using a Dboys rear sight instead of making one yourself, but I think his approach would be a good template to base off of.

[2nd Bat]

I agree. Cutting up the stock to an approximate shape and then applying artistic fill creates a decent approximation. Kind of a pain but if you can leave your main internals more or less as is the end functional result is much much better than a total scratch build. The MAG brand 70 round mid caps and these cheap cheap M14 springer magazines actually show a lot of promise for a G43 project. The receiver group jimquoiri produced looked pretty darn good to me.

[insterburger]

Well I dove right in, and I think this will work. Concentrating on the stock first, as the action group will really have to be tailor fit into it, which is good and provides me the freedom to concentrate on solving this first set or problems.

Already joined the k98 buttstock to the M14 main stock. Had to remove a bit of material internally on the 98 side, then dremelled off the little wire stays on the motor housing of the M14 to give me a little more wiggle room, but the two parts fit together as they should. Initially joined them with ABS glue for positioning, then cut a channel on either side for a metal pin and slathered on PC-7 to contour the two parts together. Will file/sand until smooth and then eventually do some fiberglass resin over that, but want to wait until I do the whole stock.

Next will be joining the forearm from the 98 to the M14. I will need to wait until I get the G43 nose cap to see how that will impact the design. I ordered one from Sarco-- supposedly in stock-- so it should be here by Christmas of 2019 or so.

The short M14 mags came in, and they're lovely, will look perfect in terms of length and scale (just a bit far back is all)

I didn't take pics of the unepoxied stock joint, I'm horrible about taking photos but will try to take one now and as I continue along. In the end it won't be exactly right, but I'm hoping it will look as good as I can get it,

[2nd Bat]

Wow! I am excited to see your progress. With Garands now showing up in reasonable numbers on WW2 irsoft fields a contrasting G43 kind of balances things out.

The shortened mid cap M14 magazines are wonderful and should be very appropriate for this projects. Some cosmetically altered side walls would be fabulous for these mags but by no means an essential requirement in my book. I also think the location is fairly trivial. If however the rifle were purpose built by a major manufacturer those infidelities would be unacceptable.

Are you planning to do an augmentation to the M14s lower stock shape? Not an enormously essential step but in my opinion worth the time and effort. I am anxious to see your marriage between the butt stock and main m14 body.

[insterburger]

I will post pics soon.

I had been thinking about the stock augmentation, and my main concern was building it up in a way that both looked right and was strong, and not TOO big a pain in the butt, especially because to make it look right would mean building up along the sidewalls of the magazine well, which would be inherently weak.

I just had a great idea, that I don't know if it will work or not, but costs nothing to try: When I cut the 98k stock up, I plan to do it right behind the cross-lug, and cut the M14 stock right before it transitions from the squared off stock near the magazine to the rounded forestock area. This would give me a more or less flat bottom throughout, more similar to a real G43, but it would still retain the very quick taper on the sides that is so typical of the M14 (and was more pronounced on the M1 before it). But my idea is this: What if I cut the 98 stock where I planned on doing it, but leave angled "wings" on each side that taper to a point to basically fill in the area where the M14 stock tapers-- hard to communicate verbally, I hope anyone can visualize. It would then produce sidewalls below the front of the existing M14 magwell that are already integral to the 98k stock and have that structural stability-- these are already mostly formed as they comprise the part of the 98k stock where the magwell is on that gun.

This will have to be basically eyeballed and hope for the best, and I'll have to take into account how I want the action to sit, but I think it will work. There will be some fill/cosmetic work to be done no doubt, as I don't expect the join line to be perfect, and the bottom will need to look more solid when done than it actually is. But the final results should look good and be strong.

Does any of this make sense?

[insterburger]

Pics: First, the two stocks joined at the wrist, after being glued, PC-7'ed, and some filing to smooth out, also showing the mag.

[insterburger]

After a little more smoothing and sanding, with the post war "G43" buttplate faked on... the door opens the wrong way, but for the price it's pretty good. Also note the bolt disassembly disc has been removed and filled in.

[insterburger]

Does anyone know how to remove the upper part of the M14 receiver? I did a bit of exploratory disassembly, but it looks like the only way to do it without major re-engineering is to cut it away. If I have to do that, I'd love to take it apart before I start cutting away, for obvious reasons.

[insterburger]

Here is a photoshop mockup of what I'm hoping to make. The upper handguard is the M14 forearm flipped (I will sill in the hardware holes, cut it down lengthwise and depthwise, and add the distinctive notches) and the stock join line is highlighted with a heavy black line to show where I want to make the cut on the 98k stock.

[2nd Bat]

The m14 receiver group can definitely be seperated from the m14 gear box without being cut. Small screws in the undersides that are tricky to locate. If i remember right they will be easier to locate and access with the charging handle removed. Incidently you will find that there is a market for the charging handle, receiver group and fake bolt, flash hider, butt plate flap on ebay. Another even more lucrative opportunity (although it requires a little time) is buy a real M14 wood stock for as little as $20.00 to $25.00. Use all the take off parts (receiver group, handguard, butt plate hardware, gas assembly, flash hider etc and make a static non gun. M14. You'll need to buy a metal pipe or wood dowel for the exposed barrel parts. And you'll need to fabricate a trigger housing since that part will probably be used on your G43. Get some dowels, rods and lots of resin paste to hold it all together and sell it. You might be shocked what it will bring! Such an item always brings $175.00 and sometimes much, much more.

The mock up explains your concept for the lower stock augmentation (very clever) I will be shocked if the width is just right but it sure looks duable and promising. The magazine interestingly is too short and with too much angle on the bottom. (Actually upon comparing the short mag to actual G43 the magazine is actually sized about right.)

This endeavor G43 is very inspirational. Keep us posted.

[insterburger]

Thanks for the comments and suggestions, 2nd Bat. I will look into the receiver cover removal later, but it's heartening to know that it should be removable. My concern is with how the barrel and hop up unit attach to the receiver group, but I'm sure I'll figure it out. I'd love to rebuild it into a dummy gun, just for the fun of it (and yes, the money wouldn't hurt).

I was wondering all day about the stock width, and then I realized I don't have to wonder: We live in the age of calipers. If I cut the stocks how I want, the 98k stock is about 2.5 mm wider than the M14. Hardly ideal, but workable. I also realized I may be able to carefully carve away parts of the M14 stock to create an angled edge that will better adhere to the 98k forestock, but that's a problem to solve another day.

[Dracul]

Be careful not to remove TOO much from the upper receiver. You need parts of it to still attached to the lower to keep the hopup and barrel in place.

There was a G43 thread around here, I can't remember it what, but it shows the parts of the M14 upper receiver he cut off, leaving the necessary parts of the receiver attached to the lower.

[2nd Bat]

When I used M14s for 30 Cals and other projects I too cut the receiver (using a dremel) just in front of the arch (just in front of the facade bolt) so the forward overhang would remain in place (attached by screws to the lower piece) to provide support for the hop up unit on the M14. Good catch Dracul. I now remember that for my dummy guns that area was all sculpted resin paste! (easy build up)

Although somewhat doubling your build effort a replica Dummy M14 can sell for an amount able to pay for your entire materials for this build. (or darn close) Its a lot of work but its nice to be in guns "for nothing"!

My Summer is crammed with work tours (I am on one now) but when I find some time at home I am jumping on this project. Thrilled to watch your efforts and creativity.

the use of the M14 forestock as the upper handguard is brilliant and very efficient. What did the G43 stock band up front set you back if I may ask?

[insterburger]

The front band was ordered from Sarco, I thought it was a steal at $30 plus shipping (and I added a few other sundry items to the order to help "spread out" the shipping cost). And it only took them a week to get it in the mail to me, according to their last email it's on its way right now-- anyone who has dealt with Sarco knows that quick shipping cannot be taken for granted.

Thanks for the heads up Drac, it looked like parts of the front receiver were integral to the operation. I'll look for that thread and otherwise just carefully figure it out. But anything I need to cut away I will do so carefully so as to make the dummy gun project viable.

[Jerry-ADK]

Great work so far!  Keep it going.  If you pull this off, I bet there is a market for these, like 2nd Bat had for his Garands.  At least until one of the airsoft companies finally catch on.  Good luck!  

[2nd Bat]

The market in my opinion would not be nearly as abundant as the market was for the Garand as its a less well known weapon but on the other hand it is an extremely sought after and expensive collectible so I could be way off regarding the demand.

My rifles filled more of a need for skirmish players rather than collectors as the inperfections on mine drew mostly scorn from the wall hanger crowd. A G43 that wasn't anally perfect will really only fill a void for us for now and we're a pretty small market. A beautifully done excellent replica G43 would probably do very very well. For our purposes these colloquial efforts are really an asset.

I will take on a G43 someday for my own purposes (not commercially) and will borrow liberally from the creativity of others. Like all the others on this site who tackled the ambitious intent to build rifles for others I am burned out. Others just figured it out quicker!

[volkssturm]

At some point you just have to say "Eat plastic, Stitch-Nazi!" Close enough is better than not at all.

[insterburger]

At the end of the day, it's about the challenge to make something. I'm very engaged in this, but it's been like pulling teeth getting me into the 98k's I have to build. Why? Because I've already done one of those.

The good news is that I'm psychologically prepping myself for jumping back into it this summer. Apart from reminding myself that working with wood stocks will be somewhat different from my experiences with the plastic ones, I also realize that between some parts Jerry sent me and stuff I have lying around, I am VERY close to being able to build a THIRD 98k, this one with an actual WWII 98k stock (it has a couple small cracks that make it dicey for live ammo, but don't hurt its suitability for airsoft) plus some other genuine 98k parts. That should be a very interesting (read "difficult") project, and perhaps require some new angles, since the original stocks are quite different from the DBoys ones in both dimension and detail. But that will be a whole 'nother thread.

[Dracul]

Stuff from 2ndBat. As I'm about to start the final stitch of my this breadbag run....

---

Here is a picture showing at least where I cut the receivers when I used the M14 guts in other projects. The one in the rear of course is removed but uncut and the one upfront has been removed and sliced in front of the bolt channel. The precise location of the cut is not critical but as mentioned leaves the upper extension in place to secure the hop up and barrel. The area cut away is easily reproduced with resin fill if you use it for a non gun.

[2nd Bat]

Thanks for posting that dracul. With the "duckbill" in place you'll have what appears as the naked upper portion of the M14 gear box. When fabricating something creative like the G 43 receiver group and rear site etc. One approach (that I have had good luck with) is to cover everything in masking tape and then coat that with thick gobs of wax or grease. Apply your resin paste on top without final shaping and allow it to harden. Use metal bars and strips in your added resin paste to provide strength and facilitate your effort. Remove the hardened piece from the lower internals taking care not to break it off. Once confident that it will in fact come off, put it back in place and use the actual components underneath to provide support as you build up layers, shape and sand you desired shape. I use a dremel and sander for most of this shaping. The assorted fittings will provide you the tools needed to sculpt the look you want. Once done, trim, paint and enjoy the fact that your part will fit flawlessly onto your internals.

[insterburger]

Thanks for the pic, it's very illustrative, and the info is golden.

A rif on your process could be done with the JB Weld putty sticks out nowadays. Making a mold of the part in question and then molding a new bit from that could all be done in a single evening.

[2nd Bat]

A latex mold of an appropriate shaped G43 receiver group would be the ideal as was apparently done by shoot n scoot as once done parrts would be very inexpensive and quick to produce. I am not familiar with JB Weld putty sticks. The part has to be shaped so it both pours and pulls from the mold nicely. Thus you have to avoid pronounced protrusions and edges that might snag.

I have made latex molds (some successful and some not). The effort is considerable while the cost of materials is fairly nomenal. I would guess you could construct a latex mold for $125.00 in materials. It should produce 100 parts before tearing to the point that it can't be used. A receiver group from the mold will require about $8.00 in plastic. More if you add in metal flakes which is an impressive touch.

A male plug part (or parts) need to be created and then of course your molds. Veey time consuming and in my case a few failed attempts along the way. There could be a business here (extra side money nothing very lucrative) but obviously there is some risk. I wonder how many kits and finished pseudo g43s Shoot n Scoot sells? I wonder if even at his mark up he has recovered his costs even yet.

The 3G printers seem so promising for these sort of things but the more I look into it the more I realize this technology has a LONG way to go before our needs can be reasonably met going that route.

[stuka]

I am sure you can make recievers and bodies with 3d printers as they are already making plastic recievers for real steel firearms

[insterburger]

I was just talking about the bits and bobs for the front of an M14, a legit G43 receiver group would be too involved, as you say.

3D printing will be the future of this, and frankly would already be here if someone had a 3d model of the receiver. I know some people who go to an arts school and could probably very easily make such a thing, unfortunately it would not be appropriate for me to ask or for them to do it through school.

[hardslack]

Google/Trimble sketch-up has all kinds of guns modeled by enthusiasts, with varying degrees of quality. I found this one, it looked the best of the 6 or so G43's. Im not to familiar with it, my only experience being A medal of honor video game that had it...

G43 MODEL

Anyway, how does that receiver look? This whole model could be used as a base for drawing just the receiver with the intent to print.

[2nd Bat]

Someone I thought did up a CAD drawing of a G43 receiver group? From what I have learned about 3D printers it will have to be a fairly large, high quality one and the results are still pretty inconsistent and extremely slow.