ANM2 .30 Stinger Project.

[killbucket]

EDIT 052407:
Airsoft doesn't need a .50 M2 quite yet. So we will do a carry-about weapon styled after the legendary "Stinger" rifle. (So skip some of the mis-steps along this way, on down to posts closer to this edit date....)


I have an Industrially-thick binder full of pictures, Chinn's Magnificent bookset on The Machinegun (1951), fresh sheets of FFL-Free polymers, and another ubiquitous sideplate drawing from the public domain. Rock Star in the larger cans optional.

www.air-sharp.com/M2%20browning%20air-sharpdotcom.JPG

By the way, -----Told my day job I was part-time from now on. Thanks All!

The M2 feeds from either side. Both side panels can be the same or near the same, that much is defined.
Most build details will steal from the 1919, as the real M2 did. Top cover, internal structure, etc are just scaled up. Way up.

A real M2 is over 65" long. First off, forget that variant. Have to end up with something packable.

I haven't found pics of a credible short-barrel version. I've seen pics of our soldiers in Iraq (Godspeed, brave people, and come home soon!) toting them around, but the barrel of course is always out of frame.

A twin pintle mount is a must. Instant enemy urination.

No question of can the power and ammo be self-contained in the unit.

[2nd Bat]

The fact is with the space available there is no reason the current wimpy gear set ups have to be used. Aren't there motors and gears that can drive a huge pump out there and readily available? I have visions of an 8mm dynamo "clothes, tearer, offer."

[killbucket]

The width limitation remains; both guns have the same pintle dim's.

Ver2 boxes will still hang out the bottom. There IS more vertical height, an length....

[biged]

Read several attempts at 8mm gearboxes all failed.
8mm needs a volume of air to push it. Which even a bore-up cylinder cannot produce.
Regulated LP CO2 seems to be the only way.

There is a HUGE SAFETY issue with 8mm. A 8mm traveling at 400fps is 2.53 joules of force. Thats the equvilant of a 6mm gun shooting .25 bb's at 465fps. Shooting that anyone under 20 feet and it's going into you. Even at 50 feet it will penetrate clothing.

8mm is also expensive - $10 for 500 rds.

I'm hoping to have my m2 finished and running before the end of the month.
(Christ it been almost year since I started it. Maybe I'm getting old??)

///ed///

[killbucket]

Got to see that gun you're building.
8mm is new to me, I'll go look that up. -I'll stick with 6mm, the price will be coming down over the next year.
Good use of math skills there!
Yes, just because it is technically possible doesn't make it a good idea. When I build my wiper-motor gun, it will just be for plinking and target use. I'm sure it will have lethal power, and for legal reasons, be deactivated after photo/video sessions. Like a car model, the fun will be in the construction and planning.

[2nd Bat]

I see a 50 Cal as a stand off suppression weapon. My vision is to have a cut off switch when the angle of the gun dips below a certain angle so in essence it can't be fired as a direct fire weapon. Just as sniper rifles require a minimum engagement range and a responsible operator so too would the 50 Cal. The mass of course is greater due to the additional weight of the projectile but so to is the surface area. I doubt (I could be wrong) that the 8mm BBs at that FPS would penetrate clothing beyond 50 feet.

What is the jouels rating for a 68 Cal paintball guns at 300 FPS? I don't guess this 50 Cal I invision would be any worse then them. Again I coul be wrong. Obviously I wouldn't want to shoot anyone with anything I myself wouldn't agree to get shot by and I'm a wimp.

[killbucket]

Water balloon mortar launcher. Now that would be a design challenge.

That 8mm round will still hurt like a sumbitch coming from above!

[2nd Bat]

A pluging fire BB is not going to be problematic from a safety perspective at all, (Assuming normal safety precautions at any airsoft event) in fact one of the reasons for 8mm would be so they'd feel it. What most folks don't realize is how much inertia is lost in just the first 50 feet after a BB leaves an airsoft gun. This is especially true the lighter the BB. It's one of the reasons 25 gram shot from the same stock gun will actually go farther then the 20 grams do because while the FPS is greater at the muzzle, by 20 feet they have equalized and by 35 feet the 25 gram is travelling at a greater speed at 50 feet, considerably so. With upgraded guns the 28 gram are typically the way to go.

I think the example above of a 8mm at 400 FPS is greater then I would envision and probably a gas power source is the way to go but I sure like electric better. It just seems to me a 50 cal with it's size and intimidation factor should in fact provide greater range and hitting power. The cost of the BBs is laughable given the comparison to real 50 Cal ammo. With a reasonably slow (realistic rate of fire) it shouldn't be that big of a deal. I want hear a distinctive Thump Thump Thump. and have a built in tracer system.

[biged]

The last issue I encountered with a .50 used in WW2 - there were'nt any .50 infantry ground guns.
It was a mobile war and the .50's were all vehicle mounted. The M25 was the 1919a4 vehicle mount and the M31C was the .50 vehicle mount. Although the .50 can be used on an M2 tripod with a 1919a4 pintle. The M63 AA was the only ground mount to be used in WW2 but was used for against aircraft.

www.tnwfirearms.com/guns_m2hb.shtml

I made a M3 tripod for vietnam games. The other pedestal I made is a helluvalot lighter than the M63.
Either way it would not be my primary. I will deploy it for defence or use on a vehicle. (Gordak has alot of vehicles )

///ed///

[2nd Bat]

I'm definitely thinking vehicle mounted as well and at our games battlesim, hooah airsoft we invariably seem to have an actual armored vehicle or two, so plenty of opportunities to put one to use

[killbucket]

Part-time becomes no-time tomorrow. I can't afford to go to work anymore!
THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Monday, I become a full-time servant to the bitch-goddess (@##$%#@#%gearbox!!) AirSoft. And my wife approves.

Keep adding suggestions, we're creating a checklist on the whiteboard of design criteria.

[killbucket]

Hefted a REAL tripod today.
My heart goes out to our enlisted people. I could feel so much grief in that metal.
To anyone who has served, I salute you. I wouln't presume to pretend your role. My little nephew in Iraq has more pelotas than I EVER will.
I will never want a real steel converted, unless I KNOW it has not killed.

[2nd Bat]

I, like you, appreciate realism but see no reason to heft the actual weight of real weapons. I Did that enough in my youth and true service time. Airsoft is supposed to be fun and we're all supposed to feel like super heros when we play, so reduced weight and shorter humping distances contribute to keeping it fun. I plan to ad some weigtht to the 30 Cal just for general feel but don't plan for it to way any where near the actual weight of a 30 Cal. 1/3rd would be about right for this old man.

[killbucket]

On a carry-about M2:
I've seen video footage of one of our guys with an M2 in use. No tripod. He had it laying on top of a brick wall. Holding it down with one hand and letting the rounds fly. Yes, he was a fairly large individual, he actually dwarfed the gun he was using.
Vehicle mounted is "correct".
But nothing is correct about warfare. Anything goes. Especially if you weigh 300 pounds and have some adrenaline flowing.

8mm is not sounding like such a bad idea upon further study. It would be trick to hide a powerful drive unit inside an ammo can (no doubt there is enough space inside a .50 can), and use a morse cable (automotive automatic shifter cable) to drive a big air cyl inside the gun. Then some meaningful power could be generated without going to compressors or gas systems.

[Cpl. Hicks]

8mm bb's are fairly expensive though, especially if you are firing around what I guess 1000 rounds a game.

Anyway, I agree with you about the 'correctness' in war, but if you are playing ww2 scenario where it would be 'un-historical' than you might have to follow that sort of rules and only use it with its tripod or on a vehicle and such.

[2nd Bat]

The player who can afford an M2 is probably not going to sweat the cost of 8mm BBs. The rate of fire should be fairly low if it's at all authentic and even firing 3000 rounds in a game it's not that much especially when compared to the cost of actual ammo. Chances are it'd be employed only at event type games and the ammo would be covered by the sponsor and ultimately the paying participants.

I provided my M-60 at the Troan Forest Vietnam game yesterday and the gunner(s) fired 8000 rounds through it in the course of the day. I'll get Hellmutt to reimburse me for the ammo they used.

[Cpl. Hicks]

Yeah I guess your right, ammo isn't that expensive, I was just thinking he might save some dough and use 6mm intead of 8.

8000 rds! Thats a lot of plastic! (I think I used that much last year)

[killbucket]

Damn, that's a lot of stress cycles! I think I'm sold on that M60's design.
Rules Shmules....No wonder I didn't like racing RC cars...
Seriously, I think there are a lot of Yahoos (here I am!) out there who just want to make noise and have something scary looking in the house.
I will explore several end uses for the M2. A Tee-Shirt cannon, for example. I still like the idea of a reliable water baloon launcher, with computable trajectory. Maybe Wrigley gum could use a gumpack-launcher for public events...I can see the ammo racked up now.

Design issue: It would be nice to find a hopup with a side feed. I can't think of one. See, that's why the world needs a production Sten.

[killbucket]

I have all parts (less the barrel) cut out and ready to assemble tonight. Tomorrow I will finally have someting to look at here!
It will also use the M14 as a base gun, with similar mountings.

The .50cal ammo can will hold more than the .30 did, for sure, and it holds 5000 rounds!

[2nd Bat]

If I might recommend that you stick with one-to-one dimensions (or very close) Obviously you'll want to build so the barrel screws into place and can be shipped disassembled from the main receiver group. The guy who sells resin full sized 50 Cals ($350.00 or so on Ebay from time to time) ships them in a huge box. They are cool but not near as cool as your guns since yours can be set up to function!

[killbucket]

You have one of these, what is the width, outside, of the sideplates? I have the backplate drawing, but am unsure of exactly how wide the basic body is. The pintle allows for a max of 2.38", if I have the right drawing...

[2nd Bat]

I do but have turned it over to a local machine shop for them to produce in Aluminum. I can get it back this week and get any measurement you want. They plan to be done with their working prototype in time for Lion Claws (End of May) I am skeptical. It is defintely a good deal wider then the 30 Cal. It is a 30 Cal on anobolic steroids! It's way wider then 2.38 Inches! More like 4 and a half!

[killbucket]

Good to know. I have sideplates cut along with most other parts req'd. Once I know the outside width of the sideplates, I can make the lid and such. This thing is going to be gigantic. Gonna look great in my living room.
I want to get reasonably close to accurate, the target pricing is under $400 for the bare gun, hopefully under $600 for a runner. So it won't have the detail of your resin replica, but it will convince just about any onlooker.
A lot of shops have attempted a metal Browning. They will immediately find out they are competing with real-steel. It just costs too much to produce the parts from metals, and then assemble them somehow (welding and threading both jack up cost).

I have a contract with a shop who is planning metal A6's based on my 1919 design work. I haven't seen a prototype yet. They evidently feel they have a ready market for the items. I'm scared to ask what the price is. I understand they are being produced for "contract use" and will not be offered for general sale.
We'll see how this goes. A search on Google will find evidence of at least five other outfits who announced an aluminum 1919, and they no longer exist. Any of them.
Piper's does not count, nor does any converted real-steel, that's another market entirely. One with healthy biceps to haul their creations about.

Have you noticed the price on M249's coming down suddenly? Did they finally realize sales weren't happening like they could? The days of the >$1000 airsoft gun are fading fast. There are other options available, and the buying public is catching on. I'm looking forward to a nice under $250 M249 clone from AGM. With a real gearbox in it.

[2nd Bat]

I agree that the airsoft world is getting more affordable. (Actually people will probably spend as much as ever but just have a bigger and more varied arsenal!) If you can do your 30 Cals as runners for $500.00 and the M2 for $600.oo for a runner, you my friend are going to have a dramtic impact on the Mil sim community and WW2 airsoft. I wish you continued success and will help you anyway I can. I'll get you measurements and full photos if you'd like. If your M2 looks as good as your 30 Cal you will no doubt be getting an order for me.

The feed box you have rigged for your water cooled is very impressive looking. I just bought a WW2 era 50 Cal ammo box on Ebay and it arrived yesterday. It'll be perfect

[killbucket]

As stated in the 1919 post, this has become a Stinger tribute" item, and will be a .50 cal support weapon for 1 man carry use.
M14 based (of course), 10,000 round ammo supply, 7-cell battery but room for more.
It will have a shortened aircraft M2 barrel with a muzzle brake and built-in bipod mount. A tactical bipod will be included.
This item will feature tool-less, field takedown ability.
Weight is anticipated at 11 pounds total without ammo. Hefty, but portable.
We may add a cryogenic cooling system option to support insanely long bursts. The M2 body is large enough to hide a can of Freez-it inside. A prefrozen DC motor will take a ton of abuse from high voltage!
Before really good RC motors became available, I discovered this. I even went as far as wrapping the motor cans in winds of solder to add as much thermal mass as possible.
You could hit a button on the gun for about ten seconds, pulling your motor can below zero. Then pump about 18 volts through that poor Chaoli motor till it comes back up to ambient. When it dies of condensate-promoted rust, swap it out. I magine you would kill the bushings first, but the use/cost ratio should be acceptable.
This gun WILL 1-up my 1919 in battle, I hope.

[jimseery]

I get the impression, and I may be wrong, that you are basing the Stinger on the M2 50-cal BMG. If this is the case your dimensions are going to be way off. According to the article in July 2006 "American Rifleman" the ANM2 30-cal was slightly smaller than the 1919A4. "Military Small Arms of the 20th Century" gives the length of the 1919A4 as 41" and the ANM2 as 39". Prior to WW2 the ANM2 30-cal was gradually being phased out by the ANM2 50-cal BMG. Against all expectations the military did not change the designation for the new gun.
While a stinger based on a 50-cal BMG would be awesome it also wouldn't be right. I'm assuning that you have picked up the subtle hints in my correspondence that I would really like to own a stinger and if a copy of the article will help I'll try and get one to you.

[killbucket]

GOOD CALL!!!
From looking at this pic in more detail (I have NO spare time anymore...gotta love it..The first complete gun-and-ammo systems go out Monday), I see that this ISN'T an M2 .50 .
I would love to see that article, maybe a scan posted here for everyone to see? Sounds very interesting. Are there other pics of the "Stinger"?

I have only seen the one.
And, after biting down on a .30g 6mm pellet to steel my nerves, I sawed an M14 stock, right at the front of the trigger cutout. The 1919 sideplates dwarf it. I imagined the aircraft gun base probably was a bit smaller. I'll cobble up a stinger rear plate for the 1919 any way, and run it up the flagpole to test market response. The prototype Tiger gun is still here in the shop, it could use a re-work.
As soon as I offered spade grips on the 1919, that's all that's been ordered, with very few exceptions. This tells me that "historically correct" is something I should make available, but not standard.
All the pics/info I can find on the parent gun...
Luckily, this is a great pic of the stinger when printed. I'll burn some midnight oil and draw up sketches. I can make up a sideplate set that looks just like that. Using the M14 stock for a reference and fudging some details (what DID the other side look like??? I assume like most aircraft guns, it is left- or right-feed, so both sideplates are identical), I feel confident I can come up with something that would pass the ten-foot test.
Let's not get too caught up in actual dimensions. If we can find an actual sideplate drawing, however...The design criteria is a marketable finished article. Hence the "tribute" reference. 41 inches is a bit long for today's airsofter's taste. Sniper weapons and long guns are a few years off yet, I feel. Right now, Airsoft is all run-and-gun, "campers" need not apply.
This is why we think a shorter, antique style gun, self-contained, with the "flavor" of the originals would be a popular item.
Considering the nebulous nature of the subject here, few will have the information base to challenge any details. If we make it LOOK like the one in this photo, it could be a winner.

[killbucket]

Found at:
www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3980

(We were trying to link this up to the browning post a while back)
The Marine who created that was Tony Stein with the 28th Marines on Iwo .Tony was a toolmaker from Dayton Ohio and he cannibalized a .30 cal machine gun from a fighter plane he was later killed on Iwo and received the MOA .

September 30, 1921 - March 1, 1945

For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty while serving with Company A, First Battalion, Twenty-Eighth Marines, Fifth Marine Division, in action against enemy Japanese forces on Iwo Jima, in the Volcano Island, 19 February 1945. The first man of his unit to be on station after hitting the beach in the initial assault, Corporal Stein, armed with a personally improvised aircraft-type weapon, provided rapid covering fire as the remainder of his platoon attempted to move into position and, when his comrades were stalled by a concentrated machine-gun and mortar barrage, gallantly stood upright and exposed himself to the enemy's view, thereby drawing the hostile fire to his own person and enabling him to observe the location of the furiously blazing hostile guns. Determined to neutralize the strategically placed weapons, he boldly charged the enemy pillboxes one by one and succeeded in killing twenty of the enemy during the furious single-handed assault. Cool and courageous under the merciless hail of exploding shells and bullets which fell on all sides, he continued to deliver the fire of his skillfully improvised weapon at a tremendous rate of speed which rapidly exhausted his ammunition. Undaunted, he removed his helmet and shoes to expedite his movements on ran back to the beach for additional ammunition, making a total of eight trips under intense fire and carrying or assisting a wounded man back each time. Despite the unrelenting savagery and confusion of battle, he rendered prompt assistance to his platoon whenever the unit was in position, directing the fire of a half-track against a stubborn pillbox until he had effected the ultimate destruction of the Japanese fortification. Later in the day, although his weapon was twice shot from his hands, he personally covered the withdrawal of his platoon to the company position. Stouthearted and indomitable, Corporal Stein, by his aggressive initiative, sound judgment and unwavering devotion to duty in the face of terrific odds, contributed materially to the fulfillment of his mission, and his outstanding valor throughout the bitter hours of conflict sustained and enhanced the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service.

HARRY S. TRUMAN

[jimseery]

I think you're right on the money. The nice color picture is of a replica of built for the movie "Flags of our Fathers". The footage about Stein's exploits did not make the cut, but it is nice to know he is being remembered. I suspect that the B&W picture is of a real "stinger" and that the left side is pretty plain. If you can stuff your feed system into the box, slim down the barrel and fit the stock on to your current 1919 I think you'll have a winner. If you can send me a fax number to mtjim at frii.com I will send you the information I have, or I can shove it in the snail mail. Keep up the good work.
To tell the truth, when I get one I'm going to get some camo cloth, cut in 2' x 24" strips, a belt of dummy ammo, and a bottle of vegatable oil. I won't let anybody use the gun until they strip to waist, tie the camo rag around their head, oil their torso and drape the ammo belt around their bodies. You have to know some of my friends to see the insane humor in this.

[killbucket]

Why am I picturing Charlie Sheen From "Hot Shots Part Deux", where he's waist-deep in spent shells?