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Post by CharleyNovember on Jan 31, 2006 2:38:19 GMT -5
ummmm..ok. you mean Japanese model builders?
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Post by Guinness on Jan 31, 2006 2:40:50 GMT -5
Ok, great- thanks Tractor-
I am forwarding your posts and the other young mans to a member that will get them to the CO and we will invite him to stop by and tell us how much of a disgrace he believes we are.
Thanks again
-G
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Post by Rainer Schmidt on Jan 31, 2006 2:44:05 GMT -5
Like I stated earlier, the problem with transfering Re-enacting ideology over to airsoft is flawed in the sense that it cannot be fufilled. Yes there are committed players out there who have incredibly impressive impressions and they should be applauded for their hard work. It is true that others do not, yet they do try, have the motivation an' the love for World War 2. This is what counts, an' should be noticed.
I know it is common reaction for a re-enactor to notice inaccuracies, as that is what happens at any event. Gear that is not correct is pointed out, discussed an' a solition is hatched to fix that error.
In Airsoft, you are dealing with people who may not have the financial capabilities, or quite possibly do not want to damage their re-enacting gear. There are a million reasons. Ask any one of those members an' you will notice that they do wish they had perfect gear an' they do strive for it, but it takes time. Lots of low cost alternatives that will be replaced when they have the chance. They want to play an' I don't think they should be denied this right.
If this was so, Airsoft may die altogether, no matter what the theme. There would be a few hard-core players, but the vast majority would not be allowed to play. The lack of the perfect "Black Hawk Down" set-up, or quite possibly the lack of a correct OD chest rig will exclude them from playing? I don't beleive that is the way things should be.
Many of us re-enactors forget about the days of old where you could be expected to run around in Swiss uniforms, an' incorrect gear. Living History was in its infancy, but it has come a long way since it's birth so long ago. WW2 Airsoft is also in its Infancy, let it grow, help out, and let it become great.
Let me look at my location. I have 4 German soldaten that are PERFECTLY kitted, but that is not enough for a skirmish, expecially since there is only 1 American and 1 1939 Polish soldiers. Another barrier I have? Weapons, the lack of PERFECT realism an' variety cripples this perfect "utopia" that some of the people above want to see. I would rather play against 30 poorly equiped players then just stand around in a hole (Which I do, an' it can be fun) with only 4 players.
Now, onto my final point. I offer my knowledge to those who ask, an' I provide friendly advice to help people build a correct impression that they can be proud of. I remember when I started out, 2 pairs of CADPAT BDU's an' a M16 thrust me into Airsoft. With help, an' research, I fashioned my kit into the Perfect Canadian set-up for what was needed. The same can be said for these folks, they don't need people to remind them that their uniforms are not yet there. What they need are people to help them, support them onwards to their goals.
Ok, with all that said, I will make a few VERY important conclusions, please listen:
1) Airsoft is NOT re-enacting 2) We share the same motivation and interests 3) Support should be given in a friendly manner, as it will be listened to 4) Airsoft is a sport enjoyed by all, whether it be WW2 or modern. 5) We are growing and ever improving, everything has a start.
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Post by schmitty on Jan 31, 2006 2:48:43 GMT -5
O.k. well I guess that proves it then. Neither of you have ever posted here before and you both happened to stumble on this site on the same night right?
What? Our problem is not with re-enactors just you. I'm not sure how you figure Airsofters owe re-enactors for inventing the game, That's just ridiculous.
Schmitty
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Post by CharleyNovember on Jan 31, 2006 2:49:31 GMT -5
Rainer Well spoken.
I would be one of those players that has bits and peices of correct gear I add as I go. till then I get by then I have this stuff to pass down as loaner gear until others can start collecting thier correct gear. It's not that I am ignorant it is that I am a shopper and although I do well at my job I buy parts as I can. I have a crappy cushman plastic helmet for my FJ but have a repro jumpsmock because it suits me till I buy the correct repro helmet. No harm in that.
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Post by tractor3rdid on Jan 31, 2006 2:55:54 GMT -5
then don't claim to have perfect uniforms and gear. that is all we are pointing out. reenactors don't care if we wreck our uniforms in any field. it is cheap and only around 500 to do ww2 with everything except a riffle which you can borrow from someone. we also do not care about every thread we have a 5 foot rule. none of these guys would pass with this stuff from 30 feet away it is so obvious. i am trying to help you guys out by giving links to sites where you can find out the info yuo need. the proboards have a section just for airsofting. my pics can show you what to look like. i am saying i have been in a few parades in my gear and have had veterns walk up to me and say i look good and just like they did. as m1 said we can't stand people wearing vietnam helmets and using foriegn gear not us. we don't care if you buy it from china or from us vendors that are right on all we care about is people looking good.
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Post by tractor3rdid on Jan 31, 2006 2:59:16 GMT -5
we all had to do what you are doing. and by the way m1 gave me the site to check out when he found it and i gave it to about 200 more reenactors to see.
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Post by C2386 on Jan 31, 2006 3:01:18 GMT -5
O.k. well I guess that proves it then. Neither of you have ever posted here before and you both happened to stumble on this site on the same night right? If you only knew how many more of us are sitting here and watching this hilarious thread proceed. I'm laughing my butt off. And since you brought it up I thought I'd just post as well! By the way, they're cool guys in reality. They're just giving you a rough time, don't take it too much to heart. But you gotta admit, allamericandad, your impression is purty darn funny! ;D Cheers!
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Post by CharleyNovember on Jan 31, 2006 3:02:21 GMT -5
You just gutted your own argument...I never claimed my uniform was perfect as a matter of fact I point out what is wrong with it. I bought what I bought knowing exactly what it was and how it was incorrect please reread some of my last post about why I do this. I buy stuff in peices.
Again let me once again point out my group though similar in name is different. The WW2AA forum which you are now on promotes 100% uniform correctness.
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Post by Guinness on Jan 31, 2006 3:06:32 GMT -5
Brothers-
Many if not all of us know reenactors or are or have been Living History participants in the past. Our very own Gordak has just shared teaser movies with us from this years FIG event and we all know how involved and respected he is in the community.
As well our good friend 2ndBat, Capt John D Robison participated in the anniversary jump into Normandy- if that is not reenacting, then none of the stuff they do here in the states qualifies. Schmitty, with his Brit and German impressions, Ranier, the list goes on-
My point is we do not need to 'qualify' ourselves to a couple of youths that clearly do not embody the sentiments of either the reenactor or the WWII Airsoft communities- Our relationships with the long standing and respected members of those groups speaks for itself. While it is understandable that when attacked you would be rightfully passionate about the issue, we only need to realize that these two, or perhaps one young person in no way speaks for the reenacting community and we should give him the attention he deserves. none.
As I stated to Mr Tractor, we know members of those groups through the WWII vehicle community, so an invitation has already been sent I understand to the group identified by the photos he shared with us, we can await their response.
-G
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Post by CharleyNovember on Jan 31, 2006 3:07:57 GMT -5
When you see me posting that picture and saying "wow look at my authentic new uniform I just bought" then I can somehow see your point but I didn't and that is not what this is about. It's about common rules of society, being a decent person and all.
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Post by Rainer Schmidt on Jan 31, 2006 3:09:09 GMT -5
*sigh* Tell your "cool guy" to smarten up an' take his critism elsewhere. If he is mature an' knowlegable like you suggest, maybe he also has a few people skills in him to.
I see no place on this thread for flaming, an' I see no need for such harsh words as "gay" to be used, but it seems like your boys want to play dirty instead of closing the window or typing some polite suggestions.
It is with this that I wish a Moderator end this horrid thread an' return order. A nice lock would be much appreciated.
Sorry to all you who feel your need to voice anger. Maybe one day you will grow some respect.
Once again, request this topic be closed.
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Post by schmitty on Jan 31, 2006 3:15:08 GMT -5
Can't you see that it's wrong to go onto someone's forum as a guest and start throwing insults?
Well maybe that's the difference, Airsoft is about simulated combat. Not marching in parades (Not intended as an insult.)
I do. The board shows a whopping 3 guests.
Schmitty
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Post by Go4Broke on Jan 31, 2006 3:58:41 GMT -5
Ok this conversation could have been brought about with a lot more tact. PLEASE Tractor stop shooting your mouth off. Guys I apologize on behalf of 3rd ID RPS. Ok guys look at it from this perspective. When we all go to games we admire the guy whose got the best gear, the best set up what have you. Be it "dang that guy nailed that Delta outfit spot on!" to "Scheisse! That fallchimjager's uni is wunderbar!" (excuse the spellings ) That's why at some games there are uniform and gear contests. Airsofters pride themselves on getting it right AND having fun. Now hold on to your seats folks - reenactors are the same way. Although reenactors tend to start out at a higher authenticity level both our goals are the same. What pains some reenactors is when people give up whether it be fellow reenactors or airsofters. Dan - on the website link you posted there was the following: It did not mention improving what you have. I think it seemed to junny, tractor, and others of us that this means well if it's good at 20 ft. it's good forever. In your following posts, Dan, we can see that's obviously not what you meant, that of course your goal is to improve, but there are some airsofters out there like that. We've all seen them. If it's good at 20 ft. then ok your done your good to go for eternity. WRONG! I have always done ww2 airsoft because I've wanted to feel what the GI's felt not because it was the "next cool uni to put together". I think a lot of us feel the same way. If you're in this just to play in the uni maybe ww2 airsoft's not for you. I think it's also a good thing that authenticity regs. are less stringent in airsoft. Look at game pictures and people here on the forums. A lot of us are young guys with no money. This allows us to get into it and still have a good time. I think though that we should not send across the wrong idea of the _(insert #)_ft. rule. We should all strive for authenticity especialy some of us older guys who have the money we can put into our hobby and can act as role models for the younger guys (I mean what else are we gonna blow the money on?). With that said perhaps a little bit more understanding and tact can help foster the relationship between airsoft and reenacting in the future. We share so much in common it would be sad if these two hobbies were to drift apart. Ok so a little about me. I've been ww2 airsofting for for about 5 years now, reenacting for about 6 months. I started off with my first gun being a TM Thompson (which I still have, ;D it's my baby hehe) and an impression similar to yours Dan. Since then I've always tried to get the most authentic items for my impression, and I've got it pretty good now, but there's always room to improve. Haha thanks for listening to my rant guys. Dan I. 3rd ID RPS ww2 airsofter!
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Post by tractor3rdid on Jan 31, 2006 4:06:12 GMT -5
dan i am sorry for my posts. i was taking it as you have said. i have talked to reiner about this. jun was geeting attacked and asked me to step in behind him as i did. he and i were pointing a few things out and then got attacked by some people. airsoft and paintball have been things i want to get into for a long time but as you said i do not have the money now due to college. i apologuze for my posts tractor can do 15th regiment 3rd id rps
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Post by Oggie on Jan 31, 2006 5:36:55 GMT -5
WEll you cant Bash Actaul ree-enactors compared to airsoft, you guys were goggles first off. So far for my impression along i have spent 4,500, hell im saving now for a goddamn mg-42, im insane! but its the nit picks that make the hobby more the while, for u ss get sniper viels. try to disguise those hideious goggles. dirty up your uniforms! never seen such cleanliness in my life. This hobby is short minded, as stated earlier. junny an Oddball, those guys are hardcore guys, they take this applesauce seriosuly, cause what we do is represent Veterans of world war 2. yes were there to have fun, but were there to represent a time period that we all seem intrested in. At least put in the extra effort to make your sirsoft hobby just that more unique!
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Post by Gordak on Jan 31, 2006 10:53:33 GMT -5
Actually just so everyone knows, WW2AA strives for 100% not a 20 foot rule. 20 foot rule people are guests here. 0ggie You really think every German wearing SS sniper veils would look better than the nearly invisible clear eye protection we wear? (see the avatar) I appreciate your input, as you may know Ive been doing blank fire reenacting since 1995, I run the largest military Museum north of the intrepid. Trust and bear with me please, I know what and how we are going to do the right thing. Airsoft is in its infancy, its got a LONG way to go. MY buddy Bill went to the first GAP in 1978, if he gave up because of authenticity then, we would all be playing golf and watching football. Imagine airsoft is where reenacting was in 1978. I agree 100% in putting every possible effort into realisim and authenticity. I think in time, even the most hard core reenactors will be so impressed they wont be able to resist giving airsoft a try. Airsoft is TACTICAL, if your close enough to see someones goggles, the battle is either over, or your sneaking in for a knife kill. If your really a fellow reenactor, then you should know the blank fire scene has a hell of alot of (tactical) problems to overcome. 20 foot rule guys, you need to make things clear to our reenactor guests, so they dont get confused and start thinking all ww2 airsofters are lax. -Gordak
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Post by Go4Broke on Jan 31, 2006 12:00:56 GMT -5
Amen Gordak!! ;D
Ok now I'm not trying to stir sh*t up. I want an honest little debate. Ok here goes:
Gordak made WW2AA's position very clear, but for the "20 footer guests" what's your motivation for doing WW2 Airsoft if your goal is not to get it right? I think that half the fun is getting the right impression together and to know that your fellow airsofters are also trying to do the same thing. If it's just to play airsoft in a ww2 uni why not use like BDU's or something else instead? I'm seriously curious. I'm not trying to bash you guys or anything I just want to know your motivation. To each his own.
Please don't respond if your comments willl be uncivil. That goes for airsofters and reenactors alike. Thanks Dan
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Post by m1junny on Jan 31, 2006 13:55:00 GMT -5
first, i would like to formally apologize for my actoin, i am very sorry if things i said sounded too insulting. i guess i was so full of energy that i couldnt stop with it. and, tractor and i ARE two different people, just to clarify that, as he said, he is white and i am asian, he belongs to 3rd ID reenactment unit, i am in 9th ID. he is taller, i am shorter... now to slowly explain myself, i thought wwii airsoft, or at least the pictures ive seen, promoted on the websites, were generally a reenactment, only with an airsoft gun... so that you may get that "yes i am hit, i have to take a hit" and some bit of more fun factor. i truely did not expect to see any impressions such as what i had seen in that picture... i truely thought this was another form of reenacting, thats why i was so shocked and so frustrated by seeing what we reenactors call "farb". i played airsoft when i was 14~16, and i wasnt a normal kid who would play in the neighborhood wearing jeans and sweater. i belonged to an airsoft team which required full, most up to date modern military uniform and clothing, even from beginning of my airsofting days i was reenacting! i have been around people like that for so long, that all i think is historical correctness and authenticity most of the times. if you see me in most of my reenacting or even airsofting pictures, only thing you can find me that is farb is my braces on my teeth (which i would love to get rid of if it wasnt for my orthodontist ) when i quit airsoft to get involved into world war ii reenactment about 3 years ago, i was able to get about 2000 dollars off of my airsoftguns and all the gears i sold off, my primary airsoft gun was tokyo marui m4a1, upgraded with full metal body, internal upgrade, cute little accessories here and there, and etc... my m4a1 itself coted me about $1000 to customize. that alone explains how much of hardcore airsofter i was (at the age of 16) i take this hobby very seriously, that is all... and i truely did not expect so see anything like that... please, and i mean PLEASE dont take what i said personally, (as you sarcasticly rephrased in your reply to my first post), i really meant to say dont take it personally.
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Post by m1junny on Jan 31, 2006 13:59:20 GMT -5
Actually just so everyone knows, WW2AA strives for 100% not a 20 foot rule. 20 foot rule people are guests here. and that is why when i saw the picture, i was very shocked... as i said on my previous post, i really thought WW2AA was about reenacting / airsofting combined... i did not know that indiviaul pictured was a guest member, i thought he was an actual ww2aa member...
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Post by Lifelongreenactor on Jan 31, 2006 14:32:05 GMT -5
You do realize we play dress up with toy guns in airsoft right? ? Big boys big toys... That epitomises it right there...I'll stick with reeacting.
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Post by CharleyNovember on Jan 31, 2006 15:04:30 GMT -5
Actually Gordak and others I said over and over how I was different from this WW2AA group. My group accepts uniforms like I posted. my group accepts 100% authentic aswell. If all you can put together is something that fits a basic uniform standard of differeing country colors then you are still welcome to play with us. I personally feel that If they start out with something even this basic it shows they are interested and will improve the uniform as they go along. My German uniform is more complete than my GI uniform. I also stated that I collect peices as I go along. We are more inclusive of even the person that has a passing interest in WW2. This differs from many peoples goals here and in your reenacting groups.
I feel we should all be able to coexist and live and let live. We do not claim to be reenactors. My group claims exactly the opposite. We do not ever claim to be associated with Gordak's group here the WW2AA because we are guest here and I do not wish to intefer with this groups goals.
Go4 ~ My comments are normally not uncivil unless first provoked. Your question uses basic manners and I will respond in kind. Thanks for asking.
My goal: I enjoy collecting the peices of uniforms as I go finding the right deal on Ebay or other places and buying it. That is the collector in me. Will I cut corners until I find the right peice to give an overall impression at 20' for now? You bet I will. I am not by nature as picky as some reenactors. For example a post war gas mask cannister while different in some very small areas doesn't bother me. I would never try and pass it off as authentic but it would be acceptable to me. Boots that have rubber modern soles and not hobnails just don't matter to me. That doesn't make me less than you that just makes me have a different view. If someone feels it makes them better than me I have little use for that person. If I was doing a living history display 100% authentic would be my goal but that is not what I am doing I am doing a tactical simulation and put my priority there with rules governing weapons and tactics. We use scenarios and props that would help us here aswell. I can overlook 100% authentic. I make my dedication to my ancestors and the memories of the great men and women that fought in WW2 in this way. Thier is nothing wrong with the way we do it. WE are proud of what we do and we don't take well to being forced to do what others do or told we are not good enough and should change. You wouldn't react any better if we told you that could no longer wear swasticas on your uniforms to conform to PC mania. Or ridiculed because even though your uniform and weapons do infact look topnotch you still pretty much just yelling bang at each other. You would feel slighted, you would grow defensive and you would most probally respond in anger. I hope that this very long post has explained my posistion on the matter and it was taken as reasonable and polite although you may strongly disagree with it. I like the look and feel of a reenactor gathering very authentic very good looking but not very inclusive or friendly from most people I have come in contact with. I have heard that you guys help people along that are new. Thats good and I hope thats truly how it is with you guys.
Regards, Dan
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Post by tractor3rdid on Jan 31, 2006 15:24:18 GMT -5
Go4 ~ My comments are normally not uncivil unless first provoked. either are mine but you got me provoked
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Post by BigPhish038 on Jan 31, 2006 15:34:27 GMT -5
allamericandan. I think the best gun in WW2 was the m16a2
My mom is Pissed that I skip church to troll on peoples sites
Some say Im a diss to all airsofters everywhere!
(I have a TM M16A2, which is a miserable gun, as it only shoots as far as a tiny M4 and gives away my position every time I stick the ridiculously long barrel out.)
I usually watch WWF events, untill my mom tells me to go to bed, then I sleep with my 4 foot long (taller than me)m16a2 and feel like a big boy.
oh yeah, i get alowance too! so far I got
-Guarder Bushmaster metal body -3 AE Hi-caps -1 TM Standard -9.6v 3000mah -Hurricane FTK)
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Post by fallout11 on Jan 31, 2006 15:41:32 GMT -5
Ah, another teenage troll guest.....
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Post by CharleyNovember on Jan 31, 2006 15:41:48 GMT -5
bigphish ~ God how can I go on now that I have heard your opinion on the subject. Again refer to that post were I pointed out how important people like you matter to anyone...
I don't think Junny or anyone else owned anyone. I believe Junny and I came to an understanding in the end that he has his views I have mine and we should share them tactfully.
Wow that's an exhaustive airsoft list there...is that to impress me and others? Duely noted. I bow to your obvious airsoft eliteness.
Tractor ~ Lets move forward shall we. I disagree that you were attacked first but it really doesn't matter I think we are over that hump. I have explained to the best of my ability my reasons for what I do and have done so in a cordial way.
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Post by Guinness on Jan 31, 2006 15:51:28 GMT -5
Ok brothers- As promised I have sent a communique to the 3rd ID group HQ- Here is the transcript of that message. "Greetings! My name is Chris Alvarez and I am a member of a WWII Airsoft forum board. www.ww2airsoft.com/ I am writing you because I am concerned about the actions of a two individuals that claim to be members of your Living History group. But first a little history on our group and what we are about. This forum was started by a gentleman named Sam Johnson (Gordak) and a few others that have been involved with Reenacting and Airsoft for a number of years. This forum has become a home to a great number of people from the Airsoft and Reenacting worlds alike as the owners and administrators have provided a place for players to come together under a common goal of bringing the love of history together with the tactical possibilities of Airsoft. This group strives to promote all the 'period correct' requirements of WWII living history with period correct Airsoft weapons to offer a tactical option to the younger players that the blank-firing, real weapons world of Reenacting currently does not support. We currently have members that represent a spectrum from date and quality correct authentic impressions, to members that are working on bringing their gear up to that level and are getting better everyday- all are supported and encouraged here. Our members take great pride in our "all are welcome" attitude and willingness to assist others in the pursuit of this hobby and sport, we acknowledge and understand that WWII Airsoft as a entity is still very much in its infancy and we are very supportive and encouraging because we realize that the more members we support and help, the better the sport will be as time goes on. This has always been the type of attitude and interaction I have experienced with Living History groups I have been involved with and from Reenactors I have known. That is why it is particularly disappointing to read the comments and frankly, hostile and abusive posts from two individuals that claim membership in the 3rd ID organization. I was very surprised by their behavior as I know that it does not represent the attitudes or actions of the Living History groups I have interacted with and I doubt it represents yours. Having said that I would like to add that these individuals have in fact returned and apologized, but I do not know if that was based on my posts that I would take this opportunity to communicate with your organization, or because they realized that their actions were disrespectful. I do not know if these two are using the same nicknames that they go by in your organization, so I will leave that for you to confirm based on their posts in our forum. Unfortunately, there are other individuals that have not identified themselves specifically as members of your honorable organization that continue the insulting remarks. Let me also say that we fully understand that often times when dealing with the youthful members of any group, that 'passions' can get out of hand and things may be said in type that would never be said in person- That aside, it was distressing to have to react and be attacked in a forum that has for so long been very friendly and helpful. I would like to invite you to stop by and take a look for yourself at the thread I am describing, ww2aa.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=allied&action=display&thread=1137479589 but more than that, we always welcome members of the Reenacting community to share their knowledge and experience with us to make our sport better and more inclusive- there are so many things that our hobbies have in common and we always seek to bridge the gap between the two disciplines. We need the help and support of those that have traveled this path before us! And In turn we promise to let you shoot our cool toys once in a while Thank you in advance for your time and attention to this matter and as I said we welcome you and look forward to meeting you and other soldiers in your troop in the Forums! Best regards, "Pvt. S Alvarez" Chris Alvarez ckalvarez@gmail.com"I would urge all of us to remember that we are dealing with the young members of this group- passionate, enthusiastic members admittedly, by the youthful members all the same. I urge all of the WW2AA members monitoring this thread (Where did my impression thread go?? ) to use restraint and decorum and lets not add to an already contentious thread. I would really like to get back to our members posting and contributing images of their 'works in progress' impressions and getting back to friends helping each other get better and better. ;D Thanks! -G
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Post by m1junny on Jan 31, 2006 16:14:17 GMT -5
Having said that I would like to add that these individuals have in fact returned and apologized, but I do not know if that was based on my posts no, it was not because you threatend us, it was at my own will, because some other people who posted are also my friends, who enlightened me the other point of view, and i quickly realized my mistake. that is why i apologized for my action and you say that we were insultive... and you say you were "welcoming"... besides my VERY first post, which i am aware myself that i was full of anger and rage, i am very sorry. but the responses i got were just as bad, and that is how this whole thing got worse by the minute, dont try to dump all the problems on me and tractor, we were on defensive by then. i was DONE with my rage on my first post, you guys provoked the second, and the third, and the fourth... nice welcoming that was
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Post by m1junny on Jan 31, 2006 16:19:14 GMT -5
and im not trying to start anything bad again here, im done with it, please dont go on and on with all the "insulting" bleh bleh. as allamericandan said, we are done with this and we understand each other's point of view on this topic and i honor his view. the end.
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Post by CharleyNovember on Jan 31, 2006 16:21:11 GMT -5
Junny ~ dude can we move on now? I'm over it. Seems for the most part you and tractor are aswell. few other stragglers here and there. but all in all it's over. Just do me a favor if you hang around and you have an issue with me just be polite in your disagreement with me and I'll do the same that is all.
Crap you posted just before me ;D
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