Why so Many SS Troops?

[gadge]

For most people, one word: camo

Most airsofters have a modern word fixation with camo uniforms, they want head to toe and all matching. The waffen ss essentially formed the basis of lot of modrn doctrine, much of their pioneering stuff is still in use today (camo uniforms for all, foiliage loops on smocks, reversible kit, helmet covers, kampfgruppe/mixed battlegroup tactics, assault rifles etc etc.

It's just very resonant with a lot of peoples idea of 'soldier'

There wil be for some the alure of being the 'bad guys'... not to trivialise but in the same way some people are more interested in the Empire in star war... the fact they are shaded with an evil past is darkly fascinating to some.

There's also there (deserverd in the early days) reputation of being 'elite'... most folk want to portray marines, paras, ss panzergrenadier... very few people want to be the 427rd reserve bavarian police battalion.

A few real real low lifes are actually right wing idiots and get off on it.

Personally?

I wouldnt wear a german uniform for *years* in wwii airsoft and only because i was running the german side in an event one year bought a heer uniform... in the UK we started to theme our events so that it would be 'us 82nd airborne vs 9th ss' for example ... there are more players with SS kit for the above reasons so we put on more games for the player base that means I kind of have to buy the right uniform to run the side.

Considering how left wing i am its amusing that in the past I've been accused of being a 'secret nazi' ... now given the time i was accused of that I was dating a black girl and I was openly posting pics of me running events in german uniform with no attempt to hide my airsoft... i reckon i epically failed at being either a nazi or secret

To put it back on you, why is it ok to portray SS for living history but not for airsoft?

If you're going to do WWII you have to accept that the Germans had some politically motivated (or at least on paper political) troops... you cant pretend there were no waffen SS in wwii to avoid offending people...

[customairsoftweap]

I agree with what both of you have said. There are too many Waffen SS and Fallschrimjäger soldiers out there and its really annoying. If you go to the Axis impression boards and look under the "I'm Working on It" thread all you see is Fallschrimjäger and about 99% just don't look the part, if you know what I mean. Now I can;t say that I have never thought about being in the Waffen-SS or Fallschrimjäger but after looking at all of the pictures in the different threads I think it would be best to just be a mid-war Heer solider just to be different. I do not understand the facination people have for the Waffen-SS, and many of them seem to think that they were all elite divisions. Just because a division is issued camouflage doesn't make it elite. I also think that a lot of people have secret racial motives for being in the Waffen-SS and probably dream of going back in time to kill Jews, Poles, Slavs, Gypsies, et cetra. In my opinion , doing an impression of a Waffen-SS soldier is a POLITICAL AND OR MORAL VIEW(S) STATEMENT.
I know you people are going to crucify me for that one. However, the Waffen-SS was "....the armed wing of the Nazi Party....criminal organization....list of noted massacers by the Waffen SS: Wormhoudt massacre by SS Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler , 1940, Belgium
Le Paradis massacre by SS Division Totenkopf, 1940, France
Oradour-sur-Glane massacre by SS Division Das Reich , 1944, France
Ochota massacre by SS Kaminski Brigade, 1944, Poland
Wola massacre by SS-Sturmbrigade Dirlewanger, 1944 Poland
Huta Pieniacka massacre by SS-Galizien division 1944, Poland
Tulle massacre by SS Das Reich, 1944, France
Marzabotto massacre by 16th SS Panzergrenadier Division Reichsführer-SS, 1944, Italy
Malmedy massacre by Kampfgruppe Peiper part of 1st SS Panzer Division, 1944, Belgium
Ardeatine massacre by two SS Officers, 1944, Italy
Distomo massacre by 4th SS Polizei Division, 1944, Greece
Sant'Anna di Stazzema massacre by 16th SS Panzergrenadier Division Reichsführer-SS, 1944, Italy
Ardenne Abbey massacre 12th SS Panzer Division Hitlerjugend, 1944, France...".

No member of an airsoft Waffen-SS unit can say they are non-political. They know what the Waffen-SS did in the Second World War and by putting a Waffen uniform on you represent the Waffen-SS and therefore the political views and actions of the Waffen SS, Allgemeine SS, and Nazi Party as a whole.
The Heer, Luftwaffe, and Kriegsmarine share their equal blame and guilt in the actions of WWII, but not even as close to that of the SS.

[CharleyNovember]

I think Gadge hit the nail on the head. It is most often a camo fetish. The other thing I would add is when people are starting out they look at it as cost effective to jsut buy a camo smock and some grey pants of some kind and then build off an impression from there. Their are occasional right wing nut jobs who have a political slant but I think we as a community try and run that sort of ill off. I know posting rcist views on this board will get your ass busted out of here quicker than almost anything else. CAW I think your reply paints a broad group of airsofters with an undeserved broad brush. What you say may apply to some players but certainly not all players and reenactors.

[customairsoftweap]

I agree CharleyNovemeber. The main point of my reply was to state the fact that a Waffen-SS impression unit is hypocritical if they state that they are strictly non-political. How could you be non-political if you are the Waffen-SS ?!?!?!?

[Echelon]

Agreed 100% CN, Gadge is spot on with almost everyone I know that has an SS kit. Even I, (who ADORES US kits) have dreamed of someday possibly owning an SS kit.

For us, it has nothing to do with moral, or political views/beliefs. The Germans, and more specifically the SS had some pretty cool applesauce , and once in a great while it can be kind of fun playing the "indians" or the "robbers".

[gadge]

Aug 4, 2011 14:53:21 GMT -5 customairsoftweap said:

people have for the Waffen-SS, and many of them seem to think that they were all elite divisions. Just because a division is issued camouflage doesn't make it elite. I also think that a lot of people have secret racial motives for being in the Waffen-SS and probably dream of going back in time to kill Jews, Poles, Slavs, Gypsies, et cetra. In my opinion , doing an impression of a Waffen-SS soldier is a POLITICAL AND OR MORAL VIEW(S) STATEMENT.
I know you people are going to crucify me for that one. However, the Waffen-SS was "....the armed wing of the Nazi P


No member of an airsoft Waffen-SS unit can say they are non-political. They know what the Waffen-SS did in the Second World War and by putting a Waffen uniform on you represent the Waffen-SS and therefore the political views and actions of the Waffen SS, Allgemeine SS, and Nazi Party as a whole.
The Heer, Luftwaffe, and Kriegsmarine share their equal blame and guilt in the actions of WWII, but not even as close to that of the SS.

Erm you know that not a terribly well researched statement.

The luftwaffe were Goerings PERSONAL PRIVATE ARMY to the point he expanded LFD units at the cost of the army.. you dont getmuch more political than the luftwaffe TBH. Goering was about as much as part of the Nazi state as Himler... in fact the only body in the organisation that was actually actively anti nazi was the german secret service who did their best to stuff stuf up in the allies favour so much that Hitler eventually got wise...

As for 'elite' units

Up to Barbarossa the Waffen SS *were* elite, possibly the best soliders in the world. The physical requirements to get in were very demanding and unlike the Heer, officers and NCOs were promoted on merit.. not beause of who their father went to school with.

Post Eastern Front appaling losses the Waffen SS ceases to be a political all volunteer force, by late 44 there were *many* lads in the SS who were either there because they had to be or were fighting for anti communist reasons.

The quality of the Waffen SS varies by division, by year of the war and by nationality but.. man for man they were superior soldiers to most armys rank and file.

Equally it's easy to trot out a list of war crimes (interestingly the 9th SS who we portray were never accused of any) but *all* nations commit war crimes, we are just lucky enough to be the victors who write history.. had the germans won i'm sure there would have been lengthy trials of British, Amerian and Russian soldiers who had wronglfully executed prisoners or killed civilians.

DO you *really* think the bombing of Dresden was a 'war aim' and not really appaling?

Note the soviet union had an equal system of forced labour camps and militarily were *far worse* than the germans were in Russia when they entered Berlin(read Beevors Berlin), similarly I have written accounts of UK paras shooting wounded and surrendering germans at Arnhem (read Kerhshaws 'never snows in september') and a now sadly deceased friend who was in the pacific in Chindit long range penetration column told me they simly couldnt take prisoners when miles beind lines and would execute any japanese solider they captued..... as victors we just gloss over these things

By wearing a 50 year old uniform you do not represent the vews of the nation of the time.. thats ludicrous... so by wearing a 1st world war british uniform i instantly become a racist intend on dominating india do I? I wear my east german kit and I suddenly become a 'purely defensive hero of the revolution' intent on the destruction of the capitalist west? I stick on my US vietnam kit... do i want to go all 'mai lai' on a village... of course not

It's a side in a game, it's playing soldiers, it's *airsoft*.

Now 99 per cent of sensible airsoft organisers ban allgemeine and police ss uniforms, concentration camp guard uniforms and similar as a matter of taste but the waffen ss were military units.

There is a clue in the name 'waffen' it means 'fighting'

Using your rational by putting on *ANY* german uniform you take on the views and morals of the nazi party. Even the most liberal german soldier between 1939 and 1945 would have worn TWO swastikas on their uniform.... the swastika being a POLITICAL symbol of the nazi party....

Because the Heer, the Kriegmarine, the luftwaffe, the abwehr etc ec all signed an oath of loyalty to Adolph Hitler.. not Germany, not the state... HITLER.

So the logical conclusion to your argument is that if wearing the uniform means you are an exponent of the beliefs of the body in power then they are all as bad as each other.... so lets not wear german uniforms ....

I can see NWE WWII skirmishing getting really bring really quickly
with no Axis


edit: I am now also *incredibly* confused with your stance on SS units given that only a few hours ago you were asking if it would be ok for you to be a unterscharfuhrer with a crusher cap

[Adler69]

Damn i had this long reply ready to go but Gadge you covered it all man.


If you look at a few guys in here you will see that they do both Axis and Allied impressions , Gadge has many from both sides and HEER, SS and FJ , myself as well and not just FJ but also Italian and many American impression.

I chose FJ because as a Real Paratrooper back in my youth i was trained by guys that got their training from old FJ and Paracadutista veterans of WWII, i also did a jump with Bundes FJs and was awarded Bundes FJ jump badge for that.

[volkssturm]

Actually, I believe waffen translates as arms, weapons. The Waffen SS was, loosely translated, the Armed SS. Though you could stretch it to fighting SS, I suppose. just quibbling. ;D

[gadge]

It doesn't actually mean/translate like that in german.

Complicated language , it's like trying to explain abwehr litterally, yeah it means 'defence' but conceptually it's a bit different.

It was best explained to me by a close german friend in that german has a lot of concepts that dont translate well. Abwehr is one. Litterally it's 'defence' but thats not actually what it means it's more like a karate block, a move to protect is you get me, thats Abwehr, its not 'defence' as in the 'department of defence'

I personally think while 'armed ss' is the literal translation its meaningless given that the ss were a 'schutzstaffel' or 'protection squad'. The concept is more general ss and armed ss. I think fighting is a better 'meaning' than translation.

Ah i'm rambling, im tired and i've had a hell of a stressful week

[CharleyNovember]

Excellent. Nice to have people on board that will put in long posts like that and explain things clearly to people.

[labrador]

Another reason is that camouflage, while looking great is also quite practical in airsoft games (as it is in real life). Prewar research by the verfugungstruppe showed that it cut casualties by 15 percent.

[aj czarkowski]

Just because you wear a German uniform doesn't mean your a nazi. The SS were probably the worst out of them but I bet 75% of german soldiers didn't approve of what Hitler was doing. And remember, some of the SS soldiers were conscripts so they weren't there because they wanted to be. Thats why some of them were so young and thats what I sort of got an SS impression for. I already had the tunic I bought at the airshow in reading, my friend got me the entrenching tool he found at an army navy store for my birthday, and my grandfather bought back a captured SS helmet when he got back from the war, I had no clue it was SS but I just figured stick with that impression, and at 14 I don't have enough money to buy something else anyway lol. I only do German at Ostfront battles when fighting Russians, but they weren't much better anyway so tbh I hate both. Any other time I'm 101st airborne, they are always my favorite ever since I started playing Brothers in Arms lol. By the way I'm 85% Italian and actually 15% Polish, and I still own an SS impression. So there's no way someone can call me racist, it's just a game and the war is over

[mccallion]

i agree with gadge 100% couldn't have said it better, by merly putting on a German uniform you don't gain any Nazi political powers or feelings, the people that do put on the uniform and express these feelings are in the wrong hobby.

I do a 9th and 12th SS impression i have been doing it for about 3 years now and i do it for the history i am fascinated by ww2 and just love the history, i also do many American and other German impressions spanning from ww2 to Vietnam, i see it as just portraying a side in a battle

Garnett502ndpir, German troops during ww2 depending on what period of the war had different degrees of approval for Hitler, in 1939 to early 1943 approval was pretty high because up to this point the Germans were winning and until the huge victory's of Stalingrad and at Tunis in January and may of 1943 approval started to change and from then on the Germans were on the defensive so moral droped significantly except for the fanatics and some units up until the end of the war Also garnett502ndpir if the helmet that you said your grandfather is a real SS helmet DO NOT USE IT AT ALL just put it on a shelf somewhere and never bring it into the field, original German helmets especially SS are getting rare and worth alot of money so for gods sake don't use that helmet!

McCallion

[aj czarkowski]

Aug 4, 2011 20:55:15 GMT -5 mccallion said:

Also garnett502ndpir if the helmet that you said your grandfather is a real SS helmet DO NOT USE IT AT ALL just put it on a shelf somewhere and never bring it into the field, original German helmets especially SS are getting rare and worth alot of money so for gods sake don't use that helmet!

McCallion

Yeah it is original I didn't know they were that rare
I only used it a couple times when my friend has his ostfront games in his backyard lol. The paint is kind of worn off sadly... I don't think I'll use it anymore.

[gckmntr]

Gadge and others have nailed many of the reasons that I do SS, so I won't reiterate those.

I will add one however that I haven't seen addressed, probably because it's pretty simple. I have friends that do SS. If they had done Heer, so would I. I'm not part of a unit or anything, but I had friends help me put it together. End of the day, we like playing soldier with our friends.

[Sgt_Tom]

Of course not all people are attracted to SS for the same reasons but I think simply looking cool is a big factor. The SS are known for having the most camo and many people want to do it solely for that reason. The other reason is a lot of people like to portray the elite units and the SS was one of Germany's elite units. Sure the SS were known to be more brutal then the regular army but they were also known as excellent fighters. I can't deny the SS are a very interesting choice to portray. They were one of the if not the greatest military units of their time.

The politics really has nothing to do with it. I do regular Heer as I don't like to portray the under dogs.

In my opinion WW2 Airsoft and WW2 Reenacting are one and the same. We do them because of our interest in Military history.

[gadge]

Aug 4, 2011 20:38:45 GMT -5 aj czarkowski said:

. By the way I'm 85% Italian and actually 15% Polish, and I still own an SS impression. So there's no way someone can call me racist, it's just a game and the war is over

No you're an AMERICAN, be proud of that.

Using the above logic I'm part Roman and part Viking

Taking it to it's ludicrous extremes we're all Kenyan.

[CharleyNovember]

Does that line work at bars? Do you tell the birds you are "THE" Latin lover?..lol

[gadge]

Ah it that comment all stems from a conversation my stateside friend Matt and I were having about 'St Patricks Day' when *suddenly* everyone pretends to be Irish for the day as an excue to get blind drunk when most of them (even in Britain) have never even *been* there let alone been born there *or* have either or both parents of Irish stock.

Personally I think to claim to be of a country or race you need to either be born in a country, have your actual parents from there (not your great great grandfather) or emigrate there and get citezenship. You are, like it or not, what your passport says you are

Like i say if you draw back where your ancesters are from as your 'heritage' than by default were all African - birthplace of the human race and all that.

I sincerely doubt your founding fathers left a life of persecution, poverty, religious intolerance or famine behind to start a hard new life in a new world just so that 200 years later they cold still claim to be Irish.

Didnt you guys fight and win a *war* to have you own new nationality

[Sgt_Tom]

Aug 6, 2011 5:09:30 GMT -5 gadge said:

Didnt you guys fight and win a *war* to have you own new nationality

Well "we" didn't fight the war ;D. I was just born here . I am pretty sure it was about a new system of government not a name though.

[CharleyNovember]

I don't disagree that Heer is woefully underrepresented in historical airsoft, and of note in blankpoppers land also. We are just saying painting all historical airsofters as neo nazi wannabe's is inaccurate.

Gadge: Actually I'm a very proud mutt. I'm not British-American or Scootish-American just plain old American-American.

[Sgt_Tom]

You can't even say all of the SS were hitler worshiping Nazis. They simply were not. Many were just fighting for their fatherland and they chose the SS because they were some of the best, like the marines are considered today. Many were also forced. Some of the SS were not even real Germans.

I would agree the uniform should not be taken lightly but that just all depends on where you play and who you play with.

[cairo1]

I chose the SS for the great health care.

[mccallion]

on the point that tom said most of the ss combat units were of foreign origin Swedish, French, Belgian, Holland, Ukraine , Italian troops belonged to some of the 30 + SS combat divisions that existed in ww2, also to say from personal experience not all Living history guys arnt the 100% history lovers that you would think, most of the SS guys that reenact SS do it for the same reasons stated above and then theres the guys who archly are fanatics and do SS because of their beliefs, so dont think that because its living history its any different than airsoft.....

McCallion

[gadge]

You have to remember that a *massive* proportion of the Waffen SS came from foreign nations s the Nazis were not restricted in recruiting from them and the heer/army were...

Many fought because they were staunch anticommunists, not nazis... you have to remember the 1930s and 1940s were massively polaised... you were either very right or very left. Even in America.. in the 1930s America was in many parts *very* pro hitler.

Many enlised as it was work in a time when there country was under occupation. Many were former soldiers of the occupied country and wanted to continue to be soldiers.

Some were conscripts.

It's not sound to say 'the ss blindly followed hitlers orders and were fanatics'... 1940 maybe... my 45 less so.

The last two SS units to defend Berlin were.... French. They did it to try and hold back the Russians long enough for Germans to reach British and American lines to surrender as they knew they were doomed if they returned home and if they didnt stop the Russians they's loot/destroy and rape with vengeful theory.

I'm not an nazi apologist but you have to remember it's just not that black and white.

Take the Handschar division.... a division of MUSLIM waffen ss. Recruited to fight the communists... now how on earth does that fit in with Aryan ideals?

[Adler69]

I'll give you this little number to disprove that people who re enact as SS are fanatic neo-nazi's , 3 members of the Pacific Northwest SS unit are JEWISH.

A little off topic now , my Mother's side of my family went to Argentina from 2 countries in Europe , before and after WWII , one side moved from Spain at the end of the Civil War and they fought for both sides during the Civil War.
The other part moved to Argentina at the end of WWII from Italy and Sicily , my Great Grandmother was a War Widow and she was 4'10" always wearing Black , she never spoke Spanish and had a portrait of Il Duce hanging on the Dining Room at the Head of the Table , that portrait still hangs in her house to this day in the same spot .

[Sgt_Tom]

Yea I really could care less what the common person thinks. I don't do SS either but its soley because the Heer are under represented. I actually like the Heer look anyways. Btw the way I am very right wing and I don't see what that has to do with Nazism.

[gadge]

So essentially you dont do it because

...the guys who do it in your area are idiots...

That I can fully understand

Although your Himmler argument is a bit weak given the Armys CiC was Hitler

[kingraptor141]

Aug 4, 2011 14:11:26 GMT -5 gadge said:

For most people, one word: camo

Yep, I didn't actually know the Heer didn't use the smock I'm using, but I got it anyway only to find out later it was SS, my thought process was: Grey on woodland, not a good idea, woodland camo pattern on woodland, very good idea. But for political purposes, I'd rather be the Heer.

[LϟϟAH1944]

Aug 4, 2011 14:53:21 GMT -5 customairsoftweap said:

I agree with what both of you have said. There are too many Waffen SS and Fallschrimjäger soldiers out there and its really annoying. If you go to the Axis impression boards and look under the "I'm Working on It" thread all you see is Fallschrimjäger and about 99% just don't look the part, if you know what I mean. Now I can;t say that I have never thought about being in the Waffen-SS or Fallschrimjäger but after looking at all of the pictures in the different threads I think it would be best to just be a mid-war Heer solider just to be different. I do not understand the facination people have for the Waffen-SS, and many of them seem to think that they were all elite divisions. Just because a division is issued camouflage doesn't make it elite. I also think that a lot of people have secret racial motives for being in the Waffen-SS and probably dream of going back in time to kill Jews, Poles, Slavs, Gypsies, et cetra. In my opinion , doing an impression of a Waffen-SS soldier is a POLITICAL AND OR MORAL VIEW(S) STATEMENT.
I know you people are going to crucify me for that one. However, the Waffen-SS was "....the armed wing of the Nazi Party....criminal organization....list of noted massacers by the Waffen SS: Wormhoudt massacre by SS Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler , 1940, Belgium
Le Paradis massacre by SS Division Totenkopf, 1940, France
Oradour-sur-Glane massacre by SS Division Das Reich , 1944, France
Ochota massacre by SS Kaminski Brigade, 1944, Poland
Wola massacre by SS-Sturmbrigade Dirlewanger, 1944 Poland
Huta Pieniacka massacre by SS-Galizien division 1944, Poland
Tulle massacre by SS Das Reich, 1944, France
Marzabotto massacre by 16th SS Panzergrenadier Division Reichsführer-SS, 1944, Italy
Malmedy massacre by Kampfgruppe Peiper part of 1st SS Panzer Division, 1944, Belgium
Ardeatine massacre by two SS Officers, 1944, Italy
Distomo massacre by 4th SS Polizei Division, 1944, Greece
Sant'Anna di Stazzema massacre by 16th SS Panzergrenadier Division Reichsführer-SS, 1944, Italy
Ardenne Abbey massacre 12th SS Panzer Division Hitlerjugend, 1944, France...".

No member of an airsoft Waffen-SS unit can say they are non-political. They know what the Waffen-SS did in the Second World War and by putting a Waffen uniform on you represent the Waffen-SS and therefore the political views and actions of the Waffen SS, Allgemeine SS, and Nazi Party as a whole.
The Heer, Luftwaffe, and Kriegsmarine share their equal blame and guilt in the actions of WWII, but not even as close to that of the SS.

I understand your point, and I'm not defendign them, but here is a list of things not taken into account:

1. Dirlewangers were a penal unir. Not really SS. They weren't allowed to join.
2. Numerous atrocities by Luftwaffe and Heer, even. Early on, the SS was looked down upon, so the Heer had fanatics in it, too.
3. On the Eastern front, it is hard to name a unit that didn't commit atrocities! Yes, even the 'good guy' Heer units and fallschirmjager did it, as well as the russians on a great scale.
4. Even the Western allies did. I'm not saying it's right, and yes, the SS did a lot, but then you need to count in all the Lufty and Heer ones. They weren't the "good guyd" everyone thinks they were.