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Post by slick63 on Dec 4, 2007 15:34:17 GMT -5
They've made independent stuff - the AGM MP40 was not a clone as much as a piece completion of TOP's design - since TOP's design didn't really work, am I right? The chinese mp40 was a copy of the TOP one, but with a copy of the PGC box inside, they didn`t have to do too much work. So far the chinese haven`t shown any originality in any of their airsoft guns, just a knack of seeing a niche in the market and looking around for a suitable project, hence the copy of the early marushin k98, not really suitable but people seem to be buying it because there`s nothing else around in the price range. They should`ve been able to knock up a garand aeg from one of their m14s, why haven`t they? It would take a half decent cad designer a couple of hours to come up with the moulds, and the resources the chinese factories have they would`ve stormed the market. Instead its took an englishman working out of a garden workshop to come up with a conversion kit. The chinese may be masters of reverse engineering but they should employ a couple of westerners to advise them on what is suitable as they seem to be taking the piss with the latest offering. How about a thread called the think tank, people put forward existing guns complete with pics and the manufacturers name, the chinese could look in now and then, and work out a way of copying them at a nice low price using their child labour.
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Post by Guinness on Dec 4, 2007 17:37:29 GMT -5
They should`ve been able to knock up a garand aeg from one of their m14s, why haven`t they? It would take a half decent cad designer a couple of hours to come up with the moulds, and the resources the chinese factories have they would`ve stormed the market. Instead its took an englishman working out of a garden workshop to come up with a conversion kit.Couldn't agree more slick! ..although for the record I think 2ndBat's M14's were the leader in the M14 conversion market He would never toot his own horn, but I will! ;D Slainte!
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Post by slick63 on Dec 4, 2007 17:40:20 GMT -5
Sorry old chap, I stand corrected, being an island monkey I tend to think within these shores
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Post by Guinness on Dec 4, 2007 17:42:36 GMT -5
No worries of course-
Of course I stand in awe of the custom work all you guys do!
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Post by slick63 on Dec 4, 2007 17:44:21 GMT -5
No worries of course- Of course I stand in awe of the custom work all you guys do! Cheers bud, now if only we had the resources of the chinese factories
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Dec 4, 2007 18:23:17 GMT -5
A Garand AEG that worked well and was dimensionally correct with flush mounted clips would sell like hotcakes and change everything relative to WW2 airsoft. As demonstrated with the custom conversions the basics are in place and as mentioned earlier a simple session of CAD design and some production capacity is all that's needed.
Naturally if they wanted a consultant with lots of ideas on how to make it truly spectacular I'd gladly take the 18 hour flight and spend a few days in China.
In the meantime I think it's a good idea to support this effort and encourage them to come out with whatever they have planned to finish out the series.
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Post by Guinness on Dec 4, 2007 18:52:55 GMT -5
You guys hit the nail on the head I believe- From what I have been told by my friends inside the 'industry', the Chinese have a lot of fabrication machines thanks to the "Peoples Great Economic Expansion Revolution" or whatever they call it lol I imagine something like the US Gov's 'Small Business Loan' program- Factories have access to (probably Chinese built) CNC machines and lathes and all sorts of computer run fabrication machines- Just no one qualified to produce the computer files to actually make something- So they are limited to what ever they can beg, borrow, or steal as far as plans, cad drawings, schematics, etc. to produce as many runs of whatever the product is they are making this month. I may be totally wrong, but I think I read this KAR98 is based on the old now discontinued Marushin model right? Which implies that DBoyi/Boyi whatever their name is not only reverse engineered it, but is going back to find older out of production models- Speculation could run rampant here, but here's one kooky theory- Perhaps they are actually being 'fed' these older products to make so that A.) there is no competition with the current line up, and B.) they 'cut their teeth' so to speak on quality on these lower priced products so that maybe sometime down the road, larger production orders start coming from the big name houses themselves- In other words, I'm not a conspiracy theorist per se, but it would seem to make sense that any manufacturer would be interested in decreasing their production costs by 'outsourcing' to a place where labor is cheap. Now following that same line of reasoning, we have already seen recently the cloned version of the Marushin M500 shotgun, now there is the clone of the KAR98k in 6mm, who wants to take bets that the next product we see DBoyi release is also a Marushin copy? Earlier I said I was betting on the Greasegun, after thinking about this, I am now looking for a M1 Carbine, probably the 6mm version. Time will tell.
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Post by pointman on Dec 4, 2007 19:12:29 GMT -5
That's a great point Guinness...
They also could be copying just any design..in theory arent all the big comapnies breaking trademark rights by making those replicas? I remember a few years back that the real steel companies were going to go after airsoft companies who used real trades...
I do agree that they are probably letting companies like Marui do all the R&D and then they just reverse engineer the AEG and cut the cost to sell large quantities...or they sell the product as a generic "AK-Type" airsoft or "M-4" for that matter and let whichever comapny put their name on it...this is why I hear that DBoys, JG, Both Elephant and Echo-1 are the same AEGs...just different name.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Dec 4, 2007 21:10:21 GMT -5
I always thought that these reverse engineered "Clone" Maruis were mutually shared production with various packaging and marketing brands but in fact that is not neccessarily the case. Some components I believe are shared. Here's the reason I say this. Having owned and closely examined all the various Chinese M-14 "Clones" (Five different Chinese brands) I have discovered that there are noteworthy and subtle differences in what appears to be identical parts. The plastic stocks are generally interchangeable but have different thicknesses and brace points making it obvious that each comes from a different mold. Brackets and materials are different and attachment points aren't always precise. They are very very similar but not identical where a simple reverse engineering claim could be made. This leads me to believe that the companies are far more independant then I had always assumed. I don't think it's for legal reasons as China is the wild wild west when it comes to copyright and patent infringement and none of these Airsoft companies are really big enough to go after each other.
China makes quick responses on their products to comments made on International Airsoft threads so obviously they are paying attention. Their power out of the box exceeds the Japanese versions they copy (due to domestic Japanese restrictions that simply don't apply in China) and their quality keeps getting better and better. The AGM Mp-40 was really a very unique and original design as the internals do not replicate any existing model (It's significantly better then the TOP for far less money) They revised it visually almost immediately after releasing it. I think Guinness is right about some of the talent challenges they have deciding what to do and knowing how best to do it but they are very sharp and in my opinion far more responsive to foreign marketplace input.
I think the greatest hope for continuing WW2 offerings comes from China and with their price point and improving quality that's not a bad thing. Let's hope they make better decisions then to replicate the weaker designs from TOP and Marushin and my hope is that they will do more AEG variations of various weapons. Garand, Carbine, Grease gun, Mp44, Gwere 43 FJ 42 etc. About once a year I get excited about things that are possible and about once a year something new and cool comes along to stir up that excitement.
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Post by jimseery on Dec 4, 2007 22:34:33 GMT -5
A thought. I hate platitudes, but if someone hands you lemons, make a workable K98. If you think about it we have some of the best converters around on this site. Let's do like 2nd Bat says. Buy some, I have one on order. Test them, talk about them, I think we all agree that the Chinese manufacturers pay some attention to us. We are also doing a whole lot of guessing here. If enough rifles sell, maybe someone will sell cheap shells. Who knows, maybe high impact plastic and cheap. I ordered one today from airsoft global and they call it the K-Cube Mauser. Who knows?
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Post by neoptolemus on Dec 5, 2007 1:36:48 GMT -5
2nd Bat, some food for thought.
Ting2 from RA and RMW successfully released his own line of AEG conversion kits using techniques and master copies he developed himself but gave to Inokatsu (and now a Chinese company) to produce.
If you are serious about shaping the innovation/R&D going into Chinese products and have the means to produce demonstration models, go ahead and get into contact with Cyma, or Dboys, or Jing Gong, or whoever really suits your fancy.
I wouldn't be surprised if they responded enthusiastically to offers of intellectual property at no cost.
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Post by valtteri on Dec 5, 2007 8:22:27 GMT -5
Good point by guinness - the Marushin springer has been out of stock for many, many years. If DBoys have simply reverse-engineered it, it's a surprise they've gone and found a collector gun. However, the gas version is completely reworked, which has left Marushin with plans and probably molds etc for 6mm gun that have absolutely no use. Remember the rumour that the gun was first supposed to be a Tanaka copy? Most Japanese manufacturers buy some or even most of their parts from Chinese subcontractors, so they probably have open lines of communication. Perhaps when Marushin heard about the Chinese plans to produce a Mauser, they saw their chance for getting the last bit of money for their obsolete model, as there was little fear for it to lead to copies of their recent models. (What with their gas 98K being a complete POS anyway)
It's kinda like Lada, if you guys know soviet cars. Fiat had a completely obsolete model, which they offered to Soviet Union. The soviets made it even more obsolete by contemplating the purchase for several years. Then finally they bought it and Fiat cashed in on plans and manufacturing equipment otherwise completely useless. Only the Soviets, or even Russians, never got good with their car manufacture - current, modernized Lada models are banned in EU because they are so poisonous. Luckily it seems the Chinese actually know how to do business.
In all seriousness, remembering what a fun plinking device the Marushin was before it broke, the DBoys K98K isn't probably a bad product - it just that it isn't the thing we need but irritatingly close to that.
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Post by Guinness on Dec 5, 2007 8:47:36 GMT -5
"In America, you drive cars...." "In Soviet Russia Lada Drives You!" -Yakov Smirnoff
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Dec 5, 2007 14:07:51 GMT -5
The YUGO was a completely obsolete Fiat 127 from almost 2 decades previous. (Not a bad car at the time) The YUGO hence became a poorly made FIAT. Yikes that's a frightening statement. It sold brand new in the US for $3,995.00 in 1984 or so and was not worth half that. It came equipped with a rear window defroster so your hands would stay warm while pushing it. Now we've opened up the flood gates for automotive humor.
In response to neoptolomous. I'd happily send a serious company in China a fully done prototype along with drawing of what I would hope for in a shortened clip. (i'd love it to be flush mounted, 18 - 24 rounds and even externally shaped somewhat like a Garand clip) The lower stock could fully depart from the svelt M-14 line and the various trim items could be revised. The M-14 receiver group would only have to be adapted a little bit and the outer barrel of an M-14 lengthend just a half inch or so. Very minor tweaks to an existing design. The expensive tooling is already done.
If I thought a viable company was legitimately open to it I'd do it in a heart beat. All I'd ask in return is 20 of the finished product to use as rental guns at local events!
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Post by neoptolemus on Dec 5, 2007 16:17:40 GMT -5
You could probably ask Darklite or FarEast from Arnies Airsoft for contact information for some of the Chinese companies, then email them the pitch.
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Post by bluecrabofpain on Dec 6, 2007 6:50:59 GMT -5
I just contacted Kapowwe.com, and they said that the D-Boys Kar98k is arriving late next week for them to sell. As far as I know that will be the first US retailer to get it. I have ordered from them before, they are very good.
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Post by Guinness on Dec 6, 2007 12:15:25 GMT -5
Well as the topic title says, The DBoyi KAR98k HAS ARRIVED!More detail this afternoon, One important note- Receiver area........ Metal! ;D Slainte!
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Post by Gordak on Dec 6, 2007 13:04:20 GMT -5
wow! thanks Guiness, must be better than the marushin, cant wait to hear more! -Gordak
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Post by binarypunisher on Dec 6, 2007 13:09:43 GMT -5
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Post by ukkolzi on Dec 6, 2007 13:31:30 GMT -5
That's the best "stock" wood imitation I have ever seen. Now, only if it would run on magazines like the VSR/APS series. Aargh! So close, but yet so far...
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rkrueger
Private
G Co 505th Cannonballers 3rd Bat 1st platoon
Posts: 344
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Post by rkrueger on Dec 6, 2007 14:24:04 GMT -5
I don't do german, but looks like i am getting myself one of them as well... they look great
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Post by bluecrabofpain on Dec 6, 2007 15:22:43 GMT -5
Why so much money there?
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sharpshooter
Private 1st Class
"Shoot anything that moves and if it screams in German...shoot it again"
Posts: 510
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Post by sharpshooter on Dec 6, 2007 15:36:56 GMT -5
I know what I'm doing with fridays paycheck now Looks GREAT...cant wait for a review!
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Post by vanhalen213tx on Dec 6, 2007 16:22:10 GMT -5
I be back to check on your review.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Dec 6, 2007 16:24:11 GMT -5
Battlesim pricing: Us price and at a store front in the US! Guinness. Were those pictures of an un enhanced stock? In otherwords before you did your magic to it? If so it looks very very nice for a plastic stock.
Early, early, review from a fellow claiming to have one on the ground is that they are real hard shooters. He hadn't chrono'd it but said he believed the claimed 375 FPS. This surprises me greatly! The shells are a pain and probably impractical for anything but a really hardcore player but he said they did cycle smoothly and did shoot consistently. He felt there might be some expedient things to do to create an even better seal for a higher FPS without going to a bigger spring. Extra shells are of course a must have.
He did say the shells ejected quite a ways so don't expect to easily retrieve them in the field. This sounds like a cool little plinker for not a lot of money. I'm am extremely interested in hearing more form our own source regarding how it shoots and well it functions. Guinness we are all on pins and needles.
If it's a nice as it looks. Here's hoping they add some cool additions to their WW2 series and it doesn't take long for them to do so.
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Post by CharleyNovember on Dec 6, 2007 16:43:35 GMT -5
If they have extra cheap shells available and it shoots high and doesn't fall apart we have a winner here guys. No one will need to have a custom K98 though obviously the upgradeability of a VSR based custom job is still awesome. This looks great and I hope it shoots great. Damn EST. Hurry up G!
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Post by slick63 on Dec 6, 2007 16:46:54 GMT -5
A chap over on the UK ww2 forum emailed RSOV, spare shells are available at £1.49 each, thats about $3 each I believe
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Post by valtteri on Dec 6, 2007 16:49:35 GMT -5
Hopefully that's for a set. I've mailed Gunner about it, but he of course hasn't responded. Guns'n'Guys have this one in stock too, I'll see what they say about the sells.
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Post by Guinness on Dec 6, 2007 16:52:58 GMT -5
I've read that either RSOV or Gunner is pricing the extra shells at £1.49 (That's is in that British funny money ) So $3 bucks a round seems a bit high Also, I don't have a chrono, but it did not pierce the bottom of a pop can at 6 inches. Anyway, I'll get back to review writing.... ;D
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Post by airsoftblitzkrieg on Dec 6, 2007 17:04:15 GMT -5
hm...good news on the shells...except the price
bad news in a way about it not being able to pierce the bottom of a pop can
maybe if need be could just get a stronger spring
if the shells are $3 for 1 shell, thats a little over the top, im betting they're smarter than that, so a set of 5 or maybe even 10 hopefully
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